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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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quartermain
.224 member


Reged: 06/11/15
Posts: 2
Loc: Southwestern Pa.
Hammer double protocol
      #279481 - 18/03/16 07:11 AM

Gentleman, what is the "normal" method for two quick shots from a hammer double? Do you cock both hammers? Does recoil affect the unfired barrel? Just wondering how the PH's did it "back in the day". Thanks in advance.

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3525
Loc: Colorado
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: quartermain]
      #279483 - 18/03/16 08:44 AM

First, welcome to Nitro Express!

I also answered on the other forum but will do so here as well.

There is no reason to think that a hammer gun would be more apt to double than a hammerless gun but this comes down to each individual rifle and how its triggers and tumblers or hammers have been tuned.
Try it with both hammers cocked on your gun and you will know soon enough if it is the best way to shoot your double. Of course, you don't have to have the second barrel loaded when you do this but it does add to the anticipation!

I have always cocked both hammers on my rifles as it just seems to make sense. I also shoot the front trigger first.

In the old days when hammer guns were the norm, I would bet that both hammers were cocked before approaching the intended game especially dangerous game.
Makes some sense that even when shooting harmless game that both hammers would be cocked as a misfire could be made up for with the minimum of movement and noise by simply moving to the other trigger.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26511
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: Huvius]
      #279487 - 18/03/16 09:15 AM

I would expect both barrels would always be cocked and ready to fire - other wise there would be no "2 quick shots" if one had to recover from recoil AN D cock the other barrel before it could be fired.

Front trigger first is normal. Some gun's I've read, will otherwise "double fire".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: DarylS]
      #279490 - 18/03/16 09:42 AM

Plus one for Huvius and Daryl. Logical to have second barrel immediately available

TH44

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quartermain
.224 member


Reged: 06/11/15
Posts: 2
Loc: Southwestern Pa.
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: TH44]
      #279492 - 18/03/16 10:25 AM

I agree with the right/left firing order and thank you all for your quick response. The gun in question is a Pedersol Kodiak in the wildly popular-lol- 45-70 chambering. Any owners out there care to share your regulation load and overall experience?

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TonyD227
.300 member


Reged: 09/07/15
Posts: 105
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: quartermain]
      #279507 - 18/03/16 09:11 PM

I don't have the Kodiak but I do have a 45-70 Sabatti DR.

Being in Aust I use ADI powder and am unsure of the equiv where you are.

I load up to lever action strength in my DR but don't know what the Kodiak is rated to.

I do make a pleasant light plinking/practice round with a cast 405gr projectile and 13gr of Trail Boss.

My most accurate load is a cast 300gr proj travelling around 1900/2000fps.

--------------------
When to much recoil is just not enough.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: TonyD227]
      #279513 - 19/03/16 12:13 AM

Same again, nothing really to add. A double with only one hammer cocked is a single-shot. No point to that...

I load 56gr AR2206H (=H4895) under the 350gr Hornady RNSP for around 1950 fps in the only .45-70 currently in my employ: a Baikal MR-221 double. That load pretty-much equals the British .450 nitro-for-black ballistics and is close to the modern Marlin lever-gun equivalent, so it could be 'hot' in a Kodiak.

I have always believed the Kodiaks were regulated for a heavier bullet at slower velocity, like the original Government load, but have never owned one. There have been discussions on these forums though, so using the 'search' tool should turn up plenty of good info.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26511
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: Marrakai]
      #279517 - 19/03/16 03:08 AM

I always cocked both barrels on my Kodiak .58 ML - for a quick right and left on the steel plate targets on our trail walk course of fire. That was a fun way to shoot and to practice firing both barrels.
I was only shooting 110gr. of powder with the 280gr. balls. Recoil was mild.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: quartermain]
      #279529 - 19/03/16 05:34 AM

An old friend taught me to always cock both hammers at once, this was on double barreled shotguns, but the principal is the same for rifles. If you are righthanded, you hold the gun in your left hand with the muzzles pointing upwards and off to the left side, you then catch both hammer spurs with the web of the right hand with the index finger on the outside of the right hammer and the thumb on the inside of the left hammer, pushing down sharply will cock both hammers instantly with a minimum of force. If only one shot is needed you should return the left hammer down till it engages the halfcock notch, open the gun quickly, reload the right chamber, close the gun and put that hammer back on halfcock.
You should always carry the gun with the chambers loaded and the hammers at halfcock. When you are done shooting it is a simple matter to open the gun, clear the chambers, and always carry it back in the broken open state. That way everyone in the party knows it is safe and can't hurt anyone. You should always open the gun and hand it off to your hunting partner when crossing fences, ditches, or other dangerous obstructions. Then your partner should hand you over both guns and cross over empty handed.
I hate to see anyone, professional or not, carrying a loaded gun with the barrels over the shoulder with the muzzles facing forward. PH's have been shot that way by an accidental discharge. If you are too lazy to hand carry the gun while hunting, either get a lighter gun or quit hunting. The only other option is to break it open and carry it on your shoulder empty, but that can get you killed in a dangerous game hunt. The best way is to carry it is at port arms with the barrels facing upwards and to the left, that way nobody gets shot and it is fast and easy to bring the gun to bear on game.
Bob

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #279644 - 22/03/16 02:59 AM

Quote:

I hate to see anyone, professional or not, carrying a loaded gun with the barrels over the shoulder with the muzzles facing forward. PH's have been shot that way by an accidental discharge. If you are too lazy to hand carry the gun while hunting, either get a lighter gun or quit hunting. The only other option is to break it open and carry it on your shoulder empty, but that can get you killed in a dangerous game hunt. The best way is to carry it is at port arms with the barrels facing upwards and to the left, that way nobody gets shot and it is fast and easy to bring the gun to bear on game.
Bob



Bob,
The so-called PH carry for a double rifle, if done properly is not dangerous at all. When the rifle is over the shoulder ( for a right handed man) The barrels are automatically pointed at a 45% angle to the right , or left for a left hander of the person in front of man not pointed at the person at all. When turning to the left, or changing shoulders the muzzles are raised high. A sling on a double rifle is a real life threatening thing, far more so than the PH carry.

I have seen far more clients swinging a bolt rifle around pointing it at everyone in front of him, than those who use the PH carry with a double rifle.

On the hammer cocking some doubles do not have the HALF COCK system, but most, on double rifles, are re-bound hammers which are held away from the firing pins naturally. The safest way to cock both barrels is the use two thumbs instead of one hand cocking both simultaneously. However you do it it is only safe if the barrels are not pointed towards anyone.

........................................Mac

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (22/03/16 03:01 AM)

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #279666 - 22/03/16 10:03 PM

Dugaboy1,
The key to your statement is in the first sentence, " if done properly is not dangerous at all." I just watched a program on TV last night where some people were hunting in Africa for Cape Buffalo. They were close to a herd and the PH kept handing his double back to a gun bearer and grabbing the shooting sticks from the carrier. Then he would quickly trade back again. There were at least two more trackers/gun bearers behind them and at least one of them had gun also.
During their tense walk to get up on the buffalo I saw numerous accounts where one of them either had his muzzles pointed at the back of the head of the man in front of him or down at his feet. All the shuffling back and forth with the gun and the sticks was blowing all their safety protocols out the window. You could see that the hunters and at least one bearer were very nervous. This is precisely what I was talking about.
Not all these guys had the guns pointing upwards at all, at least two of them were level across their shoulders and at times were passing back and forth past the head of the guy in front of them.
I still maintain that over the shoulder carry is sloppy gun handling, and it is much better to have the gun under control while having both hands on it and having it pointed upwards and off to the side.
I know for a fact that people have been shot and killed accidentally doing this.
I realize that in order to get shots on film that it is necessary to have one or even two cameramen in the hunting party, but the more people involved, the more confusion involved in getting through the brush and getting a shot at the animal. This was obviously part of the problem with the hunting party I watched on T.V. That is even more reason to avoid sloppy gun handling. Bob

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #279668 - 22/03/16 11:14 PM

On my first hunt un Africa, after (I suppose) my PH had satisfied himself of my shooting skills, I generally went on stalks with my gunbearer alone. He spoke no English and I only the basics of Swahili, but we got along. With only the two of us, it was much easier to stalk (for example) past a herd of Tommies to get at the wildebeest we wanted. I never saw anyone, PH or otherwise, use the "PH carry".

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #279726 - 24/03/16 11:11 AM

Quote:

Dugaboy1,
The key to your statement is in the first sentence, " if done properly is not dangerous at all."



BOB You are correct, if done properly the method is not the problem! The accidental shootings are the result of poor gun handling, not the method of carry, that is all I'm saying. The reason the people were wounded and killed is because the rifle was pointed at them when it was fired, not because it was a so-called PH carry. You can watch a lot of TV and see poor gun handling where the rifle is pointed at others, no matter what type of rifle or what method of carry is used.

As I said, the PH carry is no more dangerous than any other method of carry. If the carrier doesn't sweep anyone nobody will be in danger.

Quote:

You could see that the hunters and at least one bearer were very nervous. This is precisely what I was talking about.>>>SNIP
I know for a fact that people have been shot and killed accidentally doing this.
This was obviously part of the problem with the hunting party I watched on T.V. That is even more reason to avoid sloppy gun handling. Bob



Nobody is wounded or killed with a rifle that is not pointed at them. As you said at the begining of this post the KEY is properly controlling of the muzzles of the rifle so it is not pointed at any thing you do not want to shoot!
................................................Mac Good hunting

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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tarawa
.333 member


Reged: 21/10/07
Posts: 420
Loc: South Florida
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: quartermain]
      #279770 - 25/03/16 03:28 AM

I have a Kodiak in all three calibers. The 45-70 shoots best with the 300 grain bullet. (Remington). Being my hog gun, I don't take it to the range, But I hit a hog in the shoulder with the right barrel at 125 yards, then hit him in the head at 40 yards as he turned and came towards me. Not technical, but it does the job!

--------------------
Life is for Service

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LGF
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Kenya/Berkeley, CA
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: tarawa]
      #285521 - 21/07/16 05:17 PM

I can walk a few miles with my .470 in one or both hands but eventually it gets heavy and I switch to the PH carry. There are usually just two of us, I walk in front, and I am intensely aware of the muzzles. To my mind, this is as safe as any carry and I can shoulder it faster than if it were slung.

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GG375
.333 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: LGF]
      #285523 - 21/07/16 06:44 PM


This is why I like the K gun with the cocking lever. Walk around all day with 2 up the spout and just push the lever forward an instant before taking the shot.

GG

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ChrisPer
.300 member


Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia
Re: Hammer double protocol [Re: GG375]
      #289157 - 17/10/16 01:22 PM

My old Jones underlever hammer gun (1875-1880ish by the proofs) is a clown car compared with a modern double. With non-rebounding hammers, you must go to half-cock to open it. Closing the action requires coordination as the barrels come down so the lever meshes with the underlugs.

I would want to spend some time doing drills with it to overcome the awkwardness, but for dangerous game its not a good choice unless in a world where the alternative were single-shot rifles, like when it was made.



Edited by ChrisPer (17/10/16 01:26 PM)

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