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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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ducmarc
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16 ga.
      #278259 - 21/02/16 02:08 PM

Was looking at a JP Sauer at the local gun show with crappy barrels but a greener xbolt and decent wood but in 16 GA. How big can u go on a 16 GA. Frame?

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #278263 - 21/02/16 05:00 PM

IIRC, bear in mind that some of this is coming from the deep dark recesses of memory,

The head diameter of a .50 BMG cartridge is around the ballpark with the 700 Nitro.

The .50 BMG cartridge development was commenced using cartridges based on the 16Ga.

In theory therefore, you could go to 700 Nitro.



I think.



If that checks out, fill your boots. (You probably will at some point in the process anyway).

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #278268 - 22/02/16 12:43 AM

ducmarc,
It's not a question of how big a shell you can stuff into a 16 ga. frame, it has more to do with the weight of the finished gun and how much recoil you want to contend with. Do you want a light handy woods gun in 45-70 or a truly hard hitter like a .450 N.E. or a 450-400? Much also depends on the general overall condition of the gun, just because the barrels have some rust does not mean that it is unfit to convert, but it also points out that the gun may have not had the best care over the years and there may be other problems inside.
I feel that most 16 gauges with three lockups are good for about any .45 caliber but would not want to build a .450 3 1/4 inch Nitro Express on one. Ellis Brown did that once and said he would never do it again, not because the gun wasn't strong enough, but because being built on a 16 gauge made it too light. There are many hidden factors involved with building a conversion gun that most people don't know about or even think over. Because these guns are built with gently tapered barrels, the barrel size at the end of the monoblock predetermines how big the barrels can be at that point and roughly how much the barrels are going to weigh.
If you want a good shooting gun, you have to balance not only the weight in the hands but also the weight of the gun against the amount of free recoil. If either of these balances is lacking, then your gun is not as pleasurable to shoot. You can't go from a gently tapered monoblock right into straight tapered barrels, if you do that it will look terrible. They must be properly contoured and that determines the overall weight of the gun and how the barrels balance with the butt stock and action.
One thing you can do is to check out barrel manufacturers barrel profiles, some will state the weight of the barrels. If they don't you can always email or call them and they will be glad to tell you what each one weighs. Take that times two for two barrels and add in roughly one pound for ribs and sights. Take that amount times two and that will be about what your finished gun will weigh, assuming that you have balanced the barrels and forend against the action and butt stock. I hope this helps you figure it out, there is much to consider before you get to the final answer. Good luck!
Bob

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ducmarc
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #278269 - 22/02/16 01:11 AM

I should rephrase the question .yes its light what would be a good cartage for a 16ga. Conversion? Overall its in pretty nice shape and in a conversion price range.have three 45-70s now.was kinda thinking of 405 Winchester.or another old cartage.since its German maybe 9.3x74r.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #278270 - 22/02/16 01:28 AM

Marc,
For a .405 Winchester you really need a 12 gauge frame, for all the reasons I gave above. It would also have to have three lockups and be in as good a shape as possible. The .450 is about the upper end of the pressure scale of conversion calibers that can be successfully made, and as a beginner, I would not recommend that one to start on. Get one of two under your belt before you try a .405 and for God's sake, Proof Test it thoroughly before you shoot it by hand! How about a 45-90 or even a 45-110, those would work out well and are cheaper to shoot than the British calibers. Try to keep your pressures down below 40,000 P.S.I. and you will be happy. Whatever you decide on, be sure to mark the loading data on the barrel flats. Bob

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ducmarc
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #278271 - 22/02/16 02:06 AM

Do u think 9.3x74 is too much seems they made a double in that caliber.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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ducmarc
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #278273 - 22/02/16 02:20 AM

And reasonable to reload

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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DarylS
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #278275 - 22/02/16 02:34 AM

http://kwk.us/pressures.html

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: DarylS]
      #278282 - 22/02/16 05:17 AM

suhl made 16 ga double guns made between 1950 and 1990 are used to build double rifles up to 9,3x74R.
cant believe they are not strong enough for the 405.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Itkid
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: lancaster]
      #278283 - 22/02/16 05:39 AM

Here the economic double rifle maker have take the practice of use the action of the 20 gauge to make double rifle in calibers as 9,3x74, 30-06 and 444 marlin.
In your position I will choice a calibre with a big diameter and relative few powder masse.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: lancaster]
      #278290 - 22/02/16 09:45 AM

Many things are possible but maybe not too smart to do. 46,000 P.S.I versus 49,000 P.S.I., it might be possible to do either of them on a 16 gauge frame, but I wouldn't want to shoot either of them very much. I tend to be more conservative in what pressures I will build a conversion gun with. You may do as you please. At least I will not have to worry about either of them coming apart. Bob

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xausa
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #278294 - 22/02/16 01:35 PM

For what it's worth, my Krieghoff .458 Winchester Magnum is built on a 16 gauge frame, simply because Krieghoff did not build anything larger than a 16 gauge on its "Teck" O/U action in 1970. The same action was also fitted with a pair of .375 H&H barrels. I killed four of the big five with that rifle in Africa, and never had a problem with it.



To be sure, the action is a double under lug, Kersten Verschluss action, which is extremely strong by any standard.

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DarylS
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: xausa]
      #278298 - 22/02/16 03:09 PM

Perhaps all 16 gauge shotgun actions are not created to be able to handle 60,000psi, safely.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: xausa]
      #278320 - 23/02/16 12:09 AM

xausa,
Thanks for making my point! Even though your gun is made on a 16 gauge SIZE frame, it was always made as a rifle and there are probably some subtle differences, such as firing pin diameters, huge bolsters at the bend, etc. In any case, the Kersten lockup is one of the strongest lockups ever known or produced because it has two crossbolts, one on either side of the barrels and about as far away from the hinge as possible. If your gun had been made originally as a 16 gauge Marlin over/under shotgun, would you want to shoot it as a .458 conversion gun? I didn't think so.
Simply stating that your .458 is the same action size as a 16 gauge over/under, does not tell the whole story by a huge margin. I am trying to help these beginners think of conversion rifles in a safer and more conservative light. Yes, many calibers can be used in double rifles, either side by sides or over/unders, but many are not suitable for beginners to be making up on shotgun frames, especially when they are of dubious strength.
Showing them your .458 on a 16 gauge SIZE frame is not helping me to constrain their enthusiasm for large bore, handmade conversions.
I personally love your Krieghoff rifle, it has one of the very best actions out there. I am currently thinking along the lines of converting my Ithaca 12 gauge model 500 into a .450 #2 Nitro Express rifle. It also has the double bites of the Kersten lock up system. Because of the larger case, the #2 has less pressure for the same loads and I have no doubt that the Ithaca will handle the strain. Thanks for sharing your wonderful gun with us. Bob

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Itkid
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #278584 - 29/02/16 12:40 AM

For me, Daryl and Birdhunter50 have take the point the problem is not the dimensions but the quality and also in the old action the condition.
Xausa, is thinkable that the gun was born as a rifle and later will be made a shotgun gun pair or it is born as rifle with a shotgun replacement barrel?
Ps. The Krieghoff quality with other German double rifle makers is one of the few certainty, that I have.

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Aaron_Little
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: Itkid]
      #278669 - 01/03/16 05:01 AM

In my experience doing conversions the 16ga is best suited for 9.3, .375, 450-400, and .45-xx.

.450ne is best suited on a 12ga frame. I'm a jp sauer now, it's finished weight is 10.5lbs w/1lb of weight in the stock and 26" barrels. It balances 1/2" in front of the hinge.

The 450-400 I did was on a jp Sauer 16ga. It's finished weight was 8.75lbs with no weight added in the stock. It balances a little further forward. With 1/2lb of weight added in the stock it would have weighed 9.25 lbs and balanced on the hinge.

--------------------
A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers LLC.
Michael08TDK@yahoo.com
682-554-0044

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #278687 - 02/03/16 12:24 AM

Aaron,
Those sound like nice rifles but I still hold the opinion that the 12 gauge frame is better for building the larger sized conversion guns on. One area that many people never consider is strength through the wrist area of the stock. If you shape these areas the same way on a 16 gauge frame and a 12 gauge frame, the 16 gauge stock will be more apt to fail in that area than the 12 gauge will.

These larger calibers produce substantially more free recoil than any 12 gauge would normally put out. I purposely build up this area on new conversion stocks just to help handle the recoil. When you look at the amount of wood in contact with the action of many of these shotguns, it is no wonder that some of them fail after a few years, especially the sidelock guns. Constant pounding, even with the lighter shotgun loads will cause them to fail after a few years, then you add in oil into the head of the stock due to poor cleaning and storage techniques, and you have a gun that is certain to fail.

That alone is reason enough for me to go with the larger 12 gauge frame and stock. The 12's don't have to weigh that much more than the 16 gauges do, nor do they have to balance that much differently, all that is done during the barrel profiling. Depending on caliber used, you can have a gun that balances on or near the hingepin and weighs as little as 7.5 to 8 pounds. The recoil and your shoulder will tell you if and when you have gone too far. Your bigger calibers are better off weighing 9 to 11 pounds anyway. 577's should weigh at least 12 to 15 pounds, but those need to be built on magnum 10 gauge frames only. Bob

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DarylS
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #278690 - 02/03/16 03:54 AM

My 12 SXS smooth with 24" tubes (early 1900's rifle with "Fluid Steel" bls), failed in the wrist on the second shot with round ball and BP. I re-bed the action and was able to use a crosspin (screw) as well to hold it together. After that, if held for another 20 shots or so with the 7 drams of 2f and an almost 500gr. round ball.
I then switched to smokeless which kicked about 1/3rd as much as the BP load had.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ducmarc
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: DarylS]
      #279231 - 13/03/16 01:22 PM

How about an Astra imperial they any count for a big nor double?

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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ducmarc
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #279232 - 13/03/16 01:23 PM

In 12 gage

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: 16 ga. [Re: ducmarc]
      #279309 - 15/03/16 12:35 AM

Marc,
You need to look at several things on the possible donor gun to determine if it's suitable for converting to the caliber you want to build. Some things that are positive factors are if it is a fairly modern gun with good steel in it. Steel has improved quite a bit, even since the 1940's.
Does the gun's frame lock up tight and does it have a third fastener on it such as a Greener crossbolt or a sliding Purdy hidden fastener? How closely do the firing pins fit into their holes in the breech face and how large are the pins in diameter? Sideclips do help a bit to stiffen things up if they are fitted tightly plus they may help direct hot gases away from your face in the case of a ruptured primer.
If you intend to reuse the original stock, is it going to be strong enough to hold up to the recoil of the new cartridge? If you measure the diameter of the barrels at the front of the intended monoblock, is there going to be enough diameter to allow for having a good shoulder plus enough barrel diameter to contain the pressure of the new shell? Have you picked out a caliber that gives you good ballistics without going overboard on pressure?
I don't know anything about the brand of gun you asked about, but if you are going to be the person who does the conversion, these are some of the things you need to look for and then decide for yourself, whether or not you feel it will hold up. Your choice of load makes a great deal of difference also, but if you decide to use a reduced load however, for God's sake, mark that load on the gun in a prominent location for future users to see. Bob

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