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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000
      #154290 - 20/02/10 09:02 PM

One of these rifles has come into our possesion and am wondering if anybody can give me any info on it.
It is fitted standard with a peep sight on the bolt and has a mauser type bolt .
Rifling is near perfect and timber is slightly scratched otherwise in very good working order.
Al

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"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5500
Loc: United States
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #154330 - 21/02/10 01:05 PM

Al, GREAT rifle, a real peach, and it is sad we don't have such a gun on the market today.

I have read somewhere of some headspace issues with these guns from time to time.

We spend so many miles on the trail that these oldies are looking more and more desireable.

How many critters require more than what the .250-3000 can handle???



No, the real mystery...........

How did that rascal get to WA? Were they ever "popular" there?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: 9.3x57]
      #154332 - 21/02/10 01:24 PM


9.3

Quite a few 250-3000's made it to Australia.


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5500
Loc: United States
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #154339 - 21/02/10 03:28 PM

Fascinating.

I wonder if more went there than stayed here? I've only ever seen a couple for sale here.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #154370 - 22/02/10 02:10 AM

I owned five of the Model 20 (1920, 1926) but I have been reducing may cache and I am currently down to three. I believe Savage built about 12,000 between 1920 and 1928. It is difficult to get accurate information about them because proper records don't exist.

Here is the short version of what I read, take it for what it's worth:

The US had just entered World War I but didn't have enough rifles to equip the forces. It took too long to produce a 1903 so alternative sources were sought. Savage, among others, designed a new rifle that they offered to produce to augment the 1903s. The government did not pursue the Savage design, instead the US converted P14 manufacturing assembly lines to produce the 1917 service rifle. As it turned out, many more 1917 rifles were used in WWI than 1903s. Savage was left with an unused design, prototypes, and test receivers.

After the war, GIs returned home with a newly gained appreciation for bolt action rifles. The overthrow of the American levergun was about to be begin. Savage saw a marketing opportunity and decided to resurrect the design they had produced for the military, but this time they would use the action for a lightweight sporter.

Some of the early Model 1920s were manufactured in 30-06. There were only a few 30-06s made so if you ever find one rush out and buy a big lottery ticket because you are one lucky guy. Perhaps the .30-06 rifles were a way for Savage to use the original prototype and test run actions since those had been made for that caliber. We can only speculate.

The debut of the Model 1920 coincided with the appearance of two new Savage cartridges, the .300 Savage and the .250-3000. Nearly all Model 1920s were made in these calibers. It is interesting to note that the size and weight of the Savage action is not far off from the size and weight of the Springfield 1903 action. The Savage action was designed around the 30-06 yet the sporting rifles rifles are extremely light and easy to handle. The Savage action was a blend of Springfield and Mauser features. It has a Mauser type claw extractor but the one on the Savage is only about 2/3 as long. The Savage action retains feed lips for a clip of five rounds of ammunition. If you want to have fun with your rifle, load some .250s on a clip and watch how sweetly those slip into the action from the feed lips. The rear of the Savage bolt has a knob similar to the one on the 1903 service rifles. The breach design is also similar to the 1903. The sliding safety is on the wrist of the stock, behind the action, much like a shotgun safety. It is a very strong action.

One thing some people don't like is that the Savage trigger also serves as the bolt stop. I have read that people lost their bolts while walking through the woods. It was claimed that, with an open bolt, a branch could push on the trigger allowing the bolt to fall out. That seems pretty remote to me, though.

The original model (1920) had a very thin, short barrel, with a fragile front sight. It proved to be too petite for the .300 cartridge. Users of Savage rifles in .300 complained of recoil and it was common for the stock to split at the wrist. Savage subsequently (1926) changed the rifle by using a heavier barrel, a slightly thicker stock, and a little stronger front sight. I think the best model 1920 to own is one in .250 and the best 1926 to own is one in .300.

Sales of the Savage Model 1920 rifles were not as Savage had hoped. The market was filled with military surplus rifles, Remington used its remaining 1917 actions to make sporting rifles, and the era of the "converting" military rifles to sporters was about to begin, including the appearance of Griffin & Howe. Worst of all for Savage, their super light, small bore, hunting bolt rifle was ahead of its time.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: Grenadier]
      #154373 - 22/02/10 02:39 AM

Great Caliber---see a few in the model 99 off and on--have only read and heard great things about it..per my info out of hte BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES..they were man. between 1920 -1931--states the value is increased for this caliber (250-3000)--besides this caliber also sold in .300 Savage..

Further states, the model 1920-1926 is similar to the model 1920 bu with a 24" barrel and Lyman aperture sight-manufactred between 1926-1931..

John Barsness recently had an article on this caliber in RIFLE SHOOTER magazine as well...


Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #154382 - 22/02/10 02:58 AM

Here you see a Model 20 (1920 version) flanked by two Model 1920s (1926 version)






  • The barrels of all three rifles carry the patent dates March 28, 1916 - Dec 26, 1916 - June 17, 1919.
  • The Model 20 (center) has no model designation on the receiver or elsewhere. The receiver rings of the Model 1920 rifles (left and right) are marked "Savage 1920 Model"
  • The Model 20 barrel is shorter than the Model 1920 barrels.
  • The stocks are a little heavier on the outside rifles.
  • The front sight on the middle rifle is the original style. The front sight on the left rifle is the later style. The rifle on the right is a Model 1920 (1926 version) but it still has the early style front sight. Note that the front sight ramps of all three are integral with the barrel. FYI, the blade is missing from the middle rifle. I need to have it replaced.
  • The rifles on the left and right have two different styles of rear sight. I have seen a third style.
  • The rifle in the middle has a bolt mounted peep sight. These were popular with the Savage. They might be really good for a quick sight picture but the bolt moves while you press the trigger so they are not more accurate (IMO).


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Edited by CptCurl (18/07/11 08:39 PM)


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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #154384 - 22/02/10 03:08 AM

Alan - My experience with these in .250 is that they shoot best with the lighter bullets. Originally the .250-3000 was loaded with an 87gr bullet to achieve 3000fps. Modern 100gr factory ammo shoots so-so in these old rifles.

Excellent info on the cartridge:

Norma info on .250 Savage

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: Grenadier]
      #154456 - 22/02/10 02:36 PM

Thankyou for all the info and interest in this rifle.
This particular rifle doesn't have a rear sight and never had one.
Only the peep on the bolt which has a smaller flip up aperature to compliment the fixed aperature.
What sort of value would you put on one these fine rifles?

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949


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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #154474 - 22/02/10 05:01 PM

Alan,

If the rifle is in the original configuration, excellent bore, has no cracks in the stock, has clean original checkering, and 95% blue then I would expect it to bring well over $2000.

If the rifle has been altered, has a cracked but repaired stock, little blue but no rust, and is in serviceable condition with a good bore, then it should still bring $500 to $800 as a shooter.

Of course that leaves a lot of in between ground for all those rifles in between. I remember seeing one that sold for over $2800 and a couple of rusty parts rifles go for around $400. Besides condition, things that add to desirability are caliber, sights, and model. Caliber - rifles in .250 generally bring more than rifles in .300. Sights - the bolt peep sights are desirable. Collectors (not me) are knowledgeable about the various types of rear sights that were used and some are more desirable than others. I just don't know which ones. Model - the model 20 rifles (1920-1926) are more petite and generally more sought after than the model 1920 rifles (1926 and later).

The middle rifle in the above photos has British proof marks. Why and when are a mystery. Odd features like that may increase desirability to some people and decrease desirability to other people. In the end, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: Grenadier]
      #154476 - 22/02/10 05:03 PM

I had an idea once. I wanted to create a matching pair of rifles, one big and one small, one in .250 and one in .35 Whelen. The first would have been a 1920 rifle in .250-3000 altered just a bit to make it look more like a 1903 Springfield. The second would be a 1903 altered a little bit to look more like the 1920. Sights, stock, and finish would match. I approached several gunsmiths but none of them even considered it seriously. I thought it was a worthy idea but ....

Anyone know a good gunsmith with vision?

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mbogo3
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Reged: 26/03/10
Posts: 54
Loc: Alberta Canada
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: Grenadier]
      #157614 - 27/03/10 12:01 PM

You will have a 1-14" twist so 87gr sp is likely best but short ogived 100gr RN should print nose first.Speer is the shortest 100gr available in North America........I had the same dilemma with a Savage 99 250-3000.........Harold ... the model 20 also came in .300 Savage both ahead of their time IMO

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savguy
.224 member


Reged: 14/07/11
Posts: 1
Loc: Ontario Canada
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: Grenadier]
      #186029 - 18/07/11 08:39 AM

I just read the price estimates for the model 20 in 250-3000 and I am not sure where these came from but I bought a beautiful Model 20 in 250-3000 22 inch barrel with serial nuber 22xx 4 digit and no cracks and all the bluing. Does not have the peep but factory rear sight, and bought it in large gun store for 400 dollars, and My friend just bought one two weeks ago on the Canadian Gunnutz website. It was a model 1920 with 10,xxx serial number and had no rear sight but peep in 250-3000 and in beautiful condition no cracks 90 plus percent with 24 inche barrel and he paid advertised price of 375. plus shipping.
I have seen them go as high as 550 but I have been collecting savages for 25 yrs and that is my experience. THe difference may be that these are all USA prices as they are higher.


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MarkR
.333 member


Reged: 29/07/07
Posts: 296
Loc: NW Vic. Australia
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: savguy]
      #189804 - 12/09/11 10:16 PM

Hey Alan,

Sorry to be slightly off topic but a year or so ago you posted a pic of a 250-3000 in a Kurz Mauser. Did you ever get any more pics to post?

Cheers,
Mark.


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1652
Loc: Australia
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: MarkR]
      #276314 - 09/01/16 09:56 PM

How much do the 20's weigh in .250 Savage?

I'm trying to work out what rifle to get my missus. She's 5' 4".

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Jim_C
.300 member


Reged: 09/08/14
Posts: 169
Loc: USA
Re: SAVAGE MODEL 20 in 250-3000 [Re: Ash]
      #276356 - 10/01/16 01:18 PM

I've got weights on 3; looks like the average for those is about 6 pounds 6 ounces.

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