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Nojden
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Reged: 07/01/15
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Loc: Sweden
7X65r double rifle for driven hunt?
      #275703 - 28/12/15 09:55 AM

Hi!
Id like to hear about your experiences or thoughts concerning the german 7X65r Brenneke in a double rifle for driven hunt?. I allready use it in a single shot rifle for stalking since about 10 years and I'm very pleased with it. I have reloaded 175gr nosler partition to about 2600 fps and it sure takes both moose and boar.

Now Im thinking of getting a side by side double rifle for driven hunt, but Im not sure if I should go for my favourite 7x65r? The intention is to hunt mainly moose and boar but also whitetail and roe. Im convinced about that the caliber is enough for these game, but is it suitable in a double rifle, with most shots within a range of 10-60 m and sometimes out to about 100-150 m?

The alternatives for me would be either 8x57irs or 9,3x74r, both good calibers and easy to find nice rifles. But why not 7x65r? Would be glad for some advice here!

(PS - beside 7x65r I use 6,5x55 SE and 45-70 govt for different occasions)


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Rell
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #275718 - 28/12/15 03:37 PM

Nojden,

I have a Chapuis SxS ejector gun with two sets of barrels. The first is in 9.3x74r topped with a VX6i 1-6x24. The second set is 7x65r topped with a VX6 2-12x42.

I have taken a good bunch of bushbucks and a few warthogs with the 9.3. I've been very happy with it's performance. The 7x65r has taken a black bear and a whitetail deer. It's regulated with 156gr Norma Orynx.

I really don't love the 7x65r for running shots. On driven game or jump shooting I really like the heavier 286gr bullet of the 9.3x74r. My bullet placement has not always been perfect on bushbucks but I've yet to loose one hit with the 9.3. I remember one I hit running through both hips and it really put it down. Another I tried slipping it in on a hard racking shot. I pulled the shot or just misread the angle but it entered thr right hip and broke the off shoulder. Both might have been fine with the 7x65r but the bullet weight of the 9.3 made marginal(poor) shot placement turn out fine.

Confidence wise I give a big nod to the 9.3.

Rell

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.

Edited by Rell (28/12/15 03:45 PM)


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mchughcb
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Rell]
      #275728 - 29/12/15 12:25 AM

If its a driven hunt make sure you put two rounds into the moose so the dogs can keep up. At least it will be light. 9,3 is better but much heavier to carry.

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aromakr
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: mchughcb]
      #275729 - 29/12/15 02:40 AM

The 7X57 has taken many African Elephants, I see no reason why 7X65R regulated for the correct bullet wouldn't be effective in a side/side.
Bob


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Rell
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: aromakr]
      #275737 - 29/12/15 07:16 AM

Very true but ... we're in the apples to oranges debate.

The 7x57 in the open and shooting standing elephants has been proven to be doable for true world class marksmen with more experience then any living soul is likely to get today.

Is it a good idea, of course not. There are much better calibers for elephant and considering the cost of an elephant hunt it's both ilegal and borderline ridiculous to talk of the 7x57 in this way.

Also you can get 9.3x74r as light or actually lighter then a 7x65r.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Nojden
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Rell]
      #275757 - 29/12/15 09:13 PM

Thanks for your replies, I agree about the advantage of big bore calibers when it comes to penetration and ability to crack heavy bones etc. The 9,3x74 is perhaps one of the most versatile cartridge for european big game in break open rifles - and its probably the most common caliber in double rifles on the second hand market where I live.

But a lot of new double rifles are chambered for 8x57irs - a caliber that is good enough for both boar, bear and moose, but with much less recoil than the 9,3x74. The 7x65r with a heavy bullet is more powerfull than the 8x57irs, on the paper. but Im aware of the advantages with larger calibers as I wrote above.

For me, the main reasons for choosing a double in 7x65r instead of the 8 and 9,3 mm would be:

-probably a lighter weapon
-cheaper on the second hand market
-low recoil compared to 9,3
-I allready have reloading dies, lots of cases and different bullets in 7mm
-to my experiences it works fine for all game I actually hunt at home.

The 9,3 on the contrary:
-lots of them in the second hand market
-Most recommended for european big game
-beautiful cartridge that fills the gap between 7mm and 45-70 in my collection of rifles.

Not sure yet, maybe I'll go for the double rifle I like best when looking around. And if its a used one but fits me well and regulates well, the caliber is perhaps not so important?


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aromakr
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #275764 - 30/12/15 02:23 AM

Rell:
You certainly didn't under stand my post, as it was meant. I didn't advocate hunting elephant with one, only using it as a example of its effective penetrating ability in heavy muscle and bone. The B.C. of a heavy round nose 7mm is extremely high, making it a very good choice. A Nosler Accubond 7mm 175gr bullet has a B.C. of .672 while a 9.3mm 300gr Hornady Dangerous game bullet's B.C. is only .320
Bob

Edited by aromakr (30/12/15 02:48 AM)


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Nojden
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: aromakr]
      #275841 - 31/12/15 04:27 AM

Bob, I assume that you mix up B.C and S.D? The ballistic coefficient has more to do with how streamlined a bullet is, i.e; a round nose allways have a lower B.C than a spitzer, but B.C is allways higher in the smaller diameter bullet, among bullets with the same weight, due to sectional density (S.D)
Heavy 6,5 and 7mm bullets have superior sectional density and therefore exhibit great penetration, thus works surprisingly good even for larger game as moose.

Read more if you google "sectional density", chuckhawks for example.

Thanks,
Nojden

Edited by Nojden (31/12/15 04:29 AM)


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THS
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #276080 - 05/01/16 12:23 AM

When hunting driven game I believe a 9,3 would get the game down quicker and allso leave a bether blood trail if wounded. When hunting in Poland for example that is a clear advantage as the search for wounded and shot after game is done quite quickly, compared to similar hunts in Sweden.

As for the 8x57irs I think it perhaps is the most suited double rifle calibre of them all for european sriven hunting. The recoil is very managable for quick and accurate double shots and it has enough power for both moose and large boars.

I dont think you would go much wrong with a 7x65r either, but I would rather use that calibre for stalking and pick a 9,3x74r for driven hunting with a double.


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gungadoug
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: THS]
      #276081 - 05/01/16 12:45 AM

You say you also use 45-70- there are some very nice doubles out there in this caliber as well! It will certainly do the job.
My 2 cents worth Doug


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Buchsemann
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: gungadoug]
      #276101 - 05/01/16 05:33 AM

Here's another 2 cents ...

I'll recommend a well-balanced and properly weighted 9.3X74R as well. With a well-placed shot the boar will either drop immediately or take no more than a few steps and drop. I've read and heard many recommending larger bullets to ensure a good blood trail given that good sized boar have a large area of thick cartilage protecting their vitals that can seal up a small hole much like a self-sealing fighter plane's fuel tank, making trailing a boar wounded with a small bore difficult and particularly so if it was running with many other boar. I must add that I am without any personal experience in this regard. On the other hand, a while back I lung shot one of my European boar that quickly turned into quite the sprinkler system for the short time he was still upright after being perforated by one of my 9.3X74R DRs.

I would not recommend going light with a 9.3X74R. A friend of mine briefly owned a 7 1/2lb Sabatti that slapped him so hard (just two shots) he turned around and put it on GunBroker.com the same day.

When saying a "properly weighted" 9.3X74R I would think that most would agree that somewhere between 8 1/2lbs and 9 1/2lbs is a "comfortable" weight. My double rifle drilling runs closer to the high end and my three standard doubles run between 8 1/2lb and 9lbs. All are very comfortable and fun to shoot.

Of course Franz Albrecht does very well using a Sauer 202 7mm Remington Mag so ...

check out some of the videos made of his shooting the wildschwein ...

https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AgH...%20on%20youtube

Regards,

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Postman
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #276119 - 05/01/16 11:04 AM

My vote goes to getting the gun that fits you best at a price you can reconcile your wallet to. As for caliber, all other thing such as rifle weight being equal, I'd go for the 9.3x74R every time for the ranges you intend to hunt. I use a Merkel 140 in 9.3 and find the weight reasonable. I have a Trijicon RMR mounted on it, and I use 250 grain Barnes TTSX bullets in it. I've killed several caribou and a few whitetail deer with it, and performance was spectacular all the way to the farthest shot laser measured at 265 yards with a brisket to rear quarter exit wound channel on a 200 pound deer.

I also have several 7mm rifles ranging from the mild 7x57R to the 7mm Remington mag, but at hunting distances I am comfortable with, ie, under 300 yards and most often well under 100 yards, I gravitate to the 9.3 every time. The 7mms will absolutely get the job done, but I like the extra momentum and deep penetration of the slower heavier bullets of the 9.3x74R. When the 7mms are driven fast with light bullets, there is often a great deal of blood shot damaged meat. Brass/cartridge availability may be somewhat of concern, but even in North America, the 9.3x74R is becoming reasonably available and in places like Europe or the African continent, 9.3x74R is easy to find. The 7x65R in North America is a bit of an odd ball and somewhat harder to find.

Edited by Postman (05/01/16 11:29 AM)


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Nojden
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Postman]
      #276140 - 05/01/16 09:49 PM

Thanks, good comments. I'm thinking more and more that a 9,3 or maybe 8mm will be my choice. Recoil is not a big issue for me, I've allready got a marlin 1895G in 45-70 and it kicks nice with 350 gr 40000 psi loads. Ive also tried 9,3X74r in a light weight Merkel 141, no problem but quite heavy punch. The 8x57 however, is a very nice low recoil cartridge that should fit well in a lightweight side by side double.
How about Chapuis, are they reliable and well built compared to e.g Merkel? I really like Merkel though....


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Rell
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #276143 - 05/01/16 11:23 PM

Nojden,

I have a Chapuis ejector gun in 9.3x74r with a spair pair of 7x65r barrels. I think the extra barrels added about $3000 USD to the cost of the gun.

The 9.3 shot bry well with Norma 286gr Orynx factory loads (what it was regulated with) I bought 1000 bullets and I'm still tweaking the hand loads but I'm close to duplicating the 2 inch 4 shot groups at 100m.

The 7 was regulated with Norma 156gr Orynx and it shot apart both vertically as well as horizontally. I sent the gun back to JJ at Champlin and he deregulated it for 200m. It now shoots factory and reloads quite well.

If I had it over to do again I would just get the 9.3 in the Chapuis SxS and maybe do a Verney-Carron OxU in 7.

I just don't like the German styling to the Merkel, Heym or Krieghof. The Chapuis, VC and Arrietta guns just look and feel better to me.

I sense that you are leaning towards the 8mm, I have no experience with it but you might be right that it's a really good comprimise. I use the 9.3 in Africa and hunt bushbucks in thick cover in areas with dangerous game and I just feel better with it for that purpose.

Good luck.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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THS
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Rell]
      #276151 - 06/01/16 02:23 AM

You should try to handle them both. If you like Merkel, you should try both the 140 and 141 version. I dont like the small frame 141 as much as the 140.

Personally I have the Chapuis and is very happy with the quality and regulation of the barrels.

If you dont dont mind inovation in a classic look you should check out the new Chapuis X4 which seems very promising from a shooting point of veiw;

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ95gfL8I2E

Edited by THS (06/01/16 04:05 AM)


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: THS]
      #276167 - 06/01/16 07:41 AM


The 8x57 is dropping off in popularity slightly these days as American ammunition manufacturers push American cartridges. You only have to watch the Wild Boar Fever series to see the change. In the earlier series they used Norma and RWS and the cartridges were 8x57, 7x64, 375 H&H, 9.3x62 and even the 9.3x74. In the latter series were Hornady is the ammunition supplier it switches across to 270 Win, 30-06, 300 Win Mag. Strange really as Hornady has a huge range of European and English cartridges but I guess they can make more money on the American cartridges. My choice would be for the 8x57 JRS as you have a powerful cartridge with moderate recoil which allows for faster recovery time between shots, and you have a huge range of factory ammo in the 196-200 grain class and S&B even make a 220 grain round. You can even hand load Woodleigh 220 and 250 grain projectiles.
Remember that your original post said you wanted a cartridge for European driven hunts and the 8x57 JRS would do everything that you want particularly with a 200 grain bullet, close range power but still good to 200 meters all in a medium weight gun without to much recoil. And in Europe ammunition is readily available at reasonable cost. IMHO.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Nojden
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #276283 - 09/01/16 03:12 AM

Thanks for your replies, I have found a couple of interesting used rifles among some dealers (on their webbsites), most interesting right now is a Chapuis ugex 8x57 irs, without scope but as i understand it's prepared for e.g swing mount. I allready have a swarovski habicht 1,25-4x22 with rails and i assume it would fit well in a swing mount.The price looks reasonable, about $3200. I will take a closer look at it soon.

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fsrmg1
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #276307 - 09/01/16 08:06 PM

I have a Beretta 689 O/U in 9.3x74R with spare 20 ga barrels. They also made that model in 30-06 and 8x57R, but I really wish I could find a set of spare barrels in either 7x57R or 7x65R. My next choice would be 8x57R.

I have used a 7x64mm as my go to gun for many years and have taken lots of deer from roe to red deer, always reliable one shot kills.

--------------------
Cheers,

Rich


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Itkid
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: fsrmg1]
      #276316 - 09/01/16 10:37 PM

In Italy we have the traditional wild boar driven hunt especially in Maremma(The south part of Tuscany), where it is born we have to shoot at very close range 99% of shots under 20 meters the animals arrive against the hunters very fast and full of adrenaline and testosterone and the shoot placement often isn't good.
In these conditions someone use double rifle, also me, the most common cartridges for double are 8x57irs and the 9,3x74R.
The 8mm is use by who prefer a more handle and lightweight double while 9,3 for who prefer the maximum stopping power.
About cartridge I will start from 196 grains for the 8mm and for 9,3 from 232 or 286-293 grains choose from the zero cartridge of the rifle.
About 9,3 bullets in driven hunt if you need info ask, I have tried some of them in driven hunt.
My suggestion for moose and wild boar is 9,3x74r with soft point bullets in a classic German double rifle but if you prefer something more light go to 8x57jrs.


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Nojden
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Itkid]
      #282404 - 15/05/16 07:53 AM

Hi again, after a while looking and feeling I went for a new o/u Chapuis orion in 8x57 jrs. Its very neat to handle, about 3,2 kg without scope. The butt stock is perhaps too long for me so i will probably make it about 1,5 cm shorter. So far I've tried only Norma factory rounds with 196 gr oryx, quite good regulation with 5cm/50 m and 8 cm/80 m with a swarovski 1-4 in pivot mount. but I think i can do better with my own loads. I'm happy so far.

Edited by Nojden (15/05/16 07:56 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: aromakr]
      #282428 - 15/05/16 02:46 PM

Quote:

Rell:
You certainly didn't under stand my post, as it was meant. I didn't advocate hunting elephant with one, only using it as a example of its effective penetrating ability in heavy muscle and bone. The B.C. of a heavy round nose 7mm is extremely high, making it a very good choice. A Nosler Accubond 7mm 175gr bullet has a B.C. of .672 while a 9.3mm 300gr Hornady Dangerous game bullet's B.C. is only .320
Bob




A comment on the 7x57 and elephant. Elephant are also hunted with solid or FMJ bullets. Moose, bear and medium game are not usually hunted with FMJ so the penetrating ability of any particular rifle with FMJs is not valid. Also the brain shot would have to be used with a 7x57 and elephant. Again if shooting a boar running along fast the margin for error would be higher. Only a real expert shot with great anatomy knowledge of an elephant would survive for long hunting a lot of elephants. Lastly it is largely a thing of history now.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #282429 - 15/05/16 02:49 PM

Quote:

Hi again, after a while looking and feeling I went for a new o/u Chapuis orion in 8x57 jrs. Its very neat to handle, about 3,2 kg without scope. The butt stock is perhaps too long for me so i will probably make it about 1,5 cm shorter. So far I've tried only Norma factory rounds with 196 gr oryx, quite good regulation with 5cm/50 m and 8 cm/80 m with a swarovski 1-4 in pivot mount. but I think i can do better with my own loads. I'm happy so far.




Very nice. I would think a lot of 8mm's would be of a similar weight to a 7x65R anyway, as they would usually be built on the same frames and models. A 200 gr projectile in 8mm will be a good bullet too. Not sure about the construction of the "oryx" bullet. Hopefully it is a good boar/deer/moose and especially bear bullet. As you are going to reload, can make up a regulating load for your chosen bullet.

The 1-4x scope sounds ideal too. Be interesting to see if it will regulate with and without scope in place.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Nojden
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: NitroX]
      #282437 - 15/05/16 07:04 PM

I think 196-200 gr bullets are ideal in the 8x57 and the advantage of 8 mm vs 7x65 in my perspective is the use of a bit heavier bullets, lower velocities and the use of shorter barrels without loosing to much power.

Norma oryx is a chemicaly bonded bullet, quite soft, and is very popular in Sweden. However, I like the woodleigh RN very much and will try both the 196 and 220 gr. Another choice is the 200 gr nosler partition, accubond or perhaps Sako hammerhead.

I believe my gun is regulated for the oryx - so how shall i think when i'm going to reload? The Norma factory rounds gave in average 2330 mps in my 55 cm barrels. I think its possible to reload a 196 gr bullet up to about 2380-2390 mps within safe pressures, and perhaps tighten the regulation between the barrels, because i guess i have to increase speed a bit to decrease the distance between the o and u barrels?

I must try to shoot without the scope as well, a good point.

I use Norma powders, preferably 203B but also URP (probably to slow though).


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #282442 - 15/05/16 07:50 PM

Be careful of using projectiles with H construction such as the Nosler Partition. Same with monometal bullets. Some people use them, I have asked some gunmakers and some do not seem to think there is an issue, but also do not regulate their rifles with such bullets. However some people also believe they can cause damage.

The Woodleigh bullets are good.

Regarding the first paragraph I know (for big bore calibres) Woodleigh did thicken and strengthen the jacket on some of their FMJ bullets making them more reliable on impact and in penetration. But also with a negative on barrel life. Not usually a big problem with the user uses SPs most of the time.

Just my comments. Other people may think differently.

Referring to double rifles and other thin walled barrelled rifles.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Jorgen
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Re: 7X65r double rifle for driven hunt? [Re: Nojden]
      #282443 - 15/05/16 07:55 PM

You have PM from Denmark. Regards JC

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