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buckstix
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1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD
      #274988 - 13/12/15 04:14 AM

1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD

I just picked up another very unique collectable and I'd like to know if anyone has any info about this type of rifle. I did find the article on the net titled "The Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle" by Larry B. Schuknecht, but I would like any additional info that might be found on these. Perhaps another member has one, or has experimented with one.

I'm anxious to try shooting it.

Here are some pictures ... As you can see, condition is very, very good, an mechanically its 100%.

Only markings I find are the caliber, the load, serial number(s), a unknown Gothic Letter on the left side just ahead of the Faucet lever, and a few inspection letters,i.e., "R" "6" (or 9). And, as the last photo shows, a scaled sketch on the bottom of the barrel side flat that shows the firing needle length in case a new one has to be made.

Your comments are most welcome.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: buckstix]
      #275004 - 13/12/15 08:54 AM

ahmmm, think this is my part

having a little thread about dreyse sporting guns http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=1

this is a "0,34" Zündnadel-Damengewehr" or Needle Fire Lady's Rifle
I hope your are not disappoint about this, can be shot also by men. its common to find such misreporting of ages like 1837 the oldest I have in my list must be arround 1865. give me the serial number of your gun and I will try to date it, cant see it clearly.
is it 3400?

the rifle is in a very good shape and will sell for 1500 -2000 euro here.
you have the caliber and the powder load but in prussian inch and grains = 26,15mm and 0,65 milligramm. your barrel must have 4 grooves and lands so please give diameter of the two.
its possible to shot the rifle but you must be able to disassemble it completly before. last pic is showing an engraving underneath this give the correct length of needle with needle holder when you hold it on the end of the receiver. probably necessary to build a tool for geting the lever with the rotationg chamber off. the bolt which contains the needle holder and spring as a unit or inside of the receiver will proably be a sealing gasket made of leather. disassemble the bolt it would be easy, its german made. then show me pics from all sides and I will find it. if there is a leather gasket it must be replaced wit a new one but its easy to made.
the powder load of 6 gran( similar to britisch grain) fine powder is low but there must be added the primer pill. such a pill must have been the power of 15 grains blackpowder alone.


the rifle can be shoot but your are in making paper cartridges



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (13/12/15 09:10 AM)


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buckstix
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: lancaster]
      #275006 - 13/12/15 10:31 AM

Hello lancaster,

Thank you for the reply.

Yes, the serial number is 3400, and I would be interested to know when it was made.

I have totally dissassembled the rifle and cleaned it. It is in very good condition with a bright bore and no pitting.

I have started shooting the rifle with 9mm pistol bullets weighing 100 grains and measuring .355 in diameter.

The actual bore of the rifle measures approx .345 inches and the groove .365 inches. I have not slugged the bore, but I will do so and obtain an exact measurement the next time I remove the rotating chamber.

I load in the following manner:

I rotate the chamber open and place a small .25" diameter piece of tissue paper over the needle hole.

I then use a fired 22 long rifle case as a powder measure. I fill it full of 4Fg black powder (5 grains) and pour it into the chamber.

Next I place an ordinary "paper cap" over the powder. The paper cap is the kind that came on a roll to be used with toy cap guns.

Then I place the 9mm bullet on top of the cap.

Finally I fill the area around the nose of the bullet with grease, much like you would do when shooting a cap & ball revolver.

I then close the rotating chamber, and shoot the rifle. It is a rather mild load and I intend to chronograph the velocity, and increase the powder as the chamber space allows.

So far its a lot of fun.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: buckstix]
      #275027 - 13/12/15 10:10 PM

imho, nobody ever try to date Dreyse sporting guns so I will be the first to do it. I see 3400 now around 1867, next SN in my list is 3437 and also a Lady's rifle in 0,34".
this action was made for rifles and some target pistols maybe between 1865 and 1877 but than replaced with the Dreyse patent action.
think its possible you fill the chamber with so much gunpowder you can get in with the bullet.
6 grain BP was not all in the original cartridge and the big primer pill gave the bullet more energy than every BP load equivalent.
how does it shoot with the undersized lead bullet? better you have a .375 roundball or maybe paper patch the .355 bullet.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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buckstix
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: lancaster]
      #275030 - 14/12/15 12:03 AM

Hello lancaster,

Thank you for the reply.

I have not done any accuracy testing. I'm still testing for reliable ignition and consistant loading method.

I don't think with such a small chamber that I can get "too much" powder in, but I will test cautiously.

Have you ever fired such a rifle with the original ammo? Do you know what the bullet weight was for the original ammo?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: buckstix]
      #275032 - 14/12/15 12:31 AM

orignal cartridge will go for +/- 25 euro a piece, you will find it here but like any 19 .century paper cartridge is rare collector stuff. I had one of this but sold it to another collector years ago.
original bullet was a roundball with barrel diameter so that what you need.
I dont have a ladys rifle but if so I would try to work with 9mm short brass. think the 9mm short brass will fit into the chamber and fall out if you turn the gun. just load a muzzle loader primer back to front into the primer pocket, close with a paper, fill blackpowder into the case and load a .375 roundball in the press. I will try it here and make some pics how to do. imho, pressure must be so low when you turn the gun the brass will fall out because it dont expand with such a blackpowder load.
what is the max. cartridge length the chamber will allow?

update:

dont find 9 mm short brass in my stuff, only a dummy round and base diameter on this Geco case is .371. if it fit into the chamber I dont believe it will expand when fired and stick there after.




to see how it works I take a 9mm para case and cut it from 19 to 17mm than drill the primer pocket so deep a muzzle loader primer would fit.





I have self sticking aluminium foil to close it





the case hold 8 grains BP and if I had a real .375 ball it could be seat in the reloading press.



if a 17 mm case is to much for the chamber it can be cut down more.
I will call this 0,34" PWM-Dreyse




Edited by lancaster (14/12/15 04:21 AM)


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buckstix
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: lancaster]
      #275076 - 14/12/15 01:19 PM

Hello lancaster,

I slugged the barrel and it measured .353" bore and .375" groove dimensions. The rotating chamber measures .390" diameter and is .740" deep at the straight sides to the corner of the curved bottom, and .770" deep at the center of the curved bottom at the needle hole.

I made a brass tool to remove the rotating chamber nut. I expect to do this often for cleaning.

Shown are:

the bullet which is 100 grains and .355" diameter,

the paper cap which is cut from a roll of caps,

and a paper disk to cover the needle hole so the powder doesn't run out.

The truncated bullet is a 9mm luger pistol bullet and is copper washed with a single grease groove.

In my next test I will try paperpatching the bullet to bring it up to a larger diameter.



The diagram is to scale and shows the loading. First I put in the paper disk, then the powder, then the cap, then the bullet, then top it off with grease. I don't think the grease is needed but it helps keeps the bullet in place as I rotate the chamber in-line with the bore.









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buckstix
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: buckstix]
      #275195 - 17/12/15 03:29 PM

Hello lancaster,

Well, I had a big problem come up with my rifle.

As you know, the bolt lock is a flat spring arrangement on top of the bolt. When the bolt is pushed in, it snaps into a recess inside the rear of the receiver, and locks the bolt in place. To move the bolt to the rear, you push the tab at the end of the spring which unlocks the bolt. Here is a diagram of the function.





However, on my rifle, the tab at the end of the spring "broke off".



When I went back and examined the pictures I had taken when I first got the rifle, I could see that the tab was already cracked. You can see the crack in this close up picture.



I examined the broken spring and tried several times to repair it by soldering the broken tab back on to the end. Each time I tested it, it failed. I tried to fix this for over 2 hours, with nothing working. And then on my last attempt, the repaired tab came off when I closed the bolt. Now I was in a fix. I could not remove the bolt. The bolt was LOCKED in the forward position.



I tried to wiggle a sewing needle into the back to catch the spring, but that didn't work. I tried to make a small flat hook from a piece music wire, but that didn't work. Every thing I tried could not open the bolt. It was now the 3rd hour of trying to remove the bolt. I went to bed.

I called several gunsmith friends and asked for their opinion on how to remove the trapped bolt. They all came to the same conclusion, "I was screwed", and the only way to get the spring depressed was to drill a small hole in the top of the receiver, and push down the spring. As much as I hated to do it, I agreed that was the only method, or else it would be a wall hanger forever. I wanted to shoot the rifle, so I drilled the hole, and it worked. As soon as the the hole was drilled through, I pushed on the drill, which depressed the spring, and the bolt popped free.

So, I solved one problem, but now I had 2 more problems. I still had a broken spring that couldn't be repaired or replaced. And, I had a hole in the top of the receiver. So, here is what I came up with to solve both problems.



I added a button.





I really don't like altering vintage rifles, but in this case I had no choice because I wanted it to function. I wonder how many others like this are permanently LOCKED closed from a broken off tab. In the end, if you didn't know how the bolt lock was suppose to function, you would think the button method was original.

Now, the good news is I've had a chance to shoot the rifle and chronograph the loads. I fired it 10 times with the loading method I described previous, and only had one miss-fire. The miss-fire happened early, on the second loading, and I determined that it was caused by powder getting between the cap and the base of the bullet. When I made sure that the cap was alway tight against the base of the bullet, I had no more miss-fires.

100g bullet of .355 dia with 9.5g of 4Fg GOEX powder - averaged 575 fps.
100g bullet paper patched to .375 dia with 9.5g of 4Fg GOEX powder - averaged 690 fps.

That's about the same ballistics as a 38 short colt. Based on this performance, I'm thinking these rifles were more useful as Rook & Rabbit rifles, or as Gardener's guns, than as a parlor plinker.

Our target holders are made of 3/8" thick plywood, which were was easily penetrated with the 9mm bullets. So, that means that you would have to have a bullet trap in your parlor.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: buckstix]
      #275198 - 17/12/15 05:28 PM

.375" is a standard Lyman mould size, due to the .36 calibre cap and ball revolvers. That is the size they use to ensure a tight fit in the chambers. A thin ring of lead is shaved off when they are seated.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: DarylS]
      #275203 - 17/12/15 07:43 PM

well, that's not realy good

this is the so called "Sperrfeder" or lock spring, a very common element on dreyse guns in this time.








I would look for a professional tig welder this technology had make surprising progress in the last time and they are close to weld everything now in every way. I think its possible to weld the spring and it still have the orignal tension after. if it works its possible to weld the hole also when you have fix the spring.
interesting what it would make if you patch the bullet. seems some of the pressure blow by because of the lose fit.
imho the orignal muzzle velocity must have been higher than this because of the big primer pill so this lady rifle was not a toy.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/12/15 07:43 PM)


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buckstix
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: DarylS]
      #275205 - 17/12/15 09:17 PM

Hello Daryl_S,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, that is in my future plans. However, I must be careful in using the correct size bullet, so it doesn't fit "too" tight in the chamber in case I have a miss-fire. Because then it requires removing the bullet, something not easily done if the bullet is "tight" in the little chamber.

Hello lancaster,

Thanks for the reply.

If you ever see any published information about bullet weight or velocity, please let me know. Maybe you could weigh an original cartridge and estimate the weight of the components.

About welding, I actually talked with a professional welder and asked him about tig-welding the broken tab. He was concerned that there was a possibility of damaging the thin spring, and then I would have to have a new one fabricated. This would be very costly, and not worth the effort.

In looking at photos of similar rifles, I have seen some with the "tab" missing. So their bolt must be locked closed also.

Maybe if someday I were to find an original replacement spring, I would weld up the small hole. But for now, I'll leave it as is and enjoy shooting it.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: buckstix]
      #275216 - 18/12/15 03:29 AM

buckstix - I was referring Lyman's round ball mould, but didn't note that, sry - my mistake.

The small diameter round balls are very easily manipulated, swaged, drawn, etc due to the small amount of lead being moved.

The larger the ball, the more lead just be moved to make any changers, thus harder they are to 'manipulate'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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buckstix
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Re: 1836 Needle Gun - Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle - Info WTD [Re: DarylS]
      #275219 - 18/12/15 05:11 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I understand, a round ball mold. But my concern is if the charge fails - then its hard to remove a round ball from inside a blind hole. The truncated bullets I can pull out with a needle-nose plyers by grabbing the nose.

With this rifle, if it fails to go off, you have to remove the contents of the chamber and start over.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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