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AbitNutz
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Reged: 02/09/12
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Loc: Ohio, USA
What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action?
      #273880 - 24/11/15 02:30 AM

The Ruger No.1 seems to be at the top of the list of strong actions. Why? What makes it different from other modern falling block designs like the Sharps clones, Farquarson or Winchester 1885?

Is it just metallurgy or is there a design difference? Is there a stronger falling block action than the No.1?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: AbitNutz]
      #273883 - 24/11/15 03:22 AM

Design: One small extractor cut-out which exposes a small portion of the strongest portion of the case and the rest surrounded by metal - I assume.

About others, I assume they all have a similar design to the Ruger, thus should be quite close. Much would depend on the extractor or ejector design.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: DarylS]
      #273891 - 24/11/15 09:33 AM

I am no expert on gun design or function. I would think the amount of steel in the locking/falling block and how much steel is behind the block to stop everything coming backwards at a great rate of knots.

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Homer
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Rule303]
      #274220 - 28/11/15 04:55 PM

G'Day Fella's,

I also don't profess to be an expert on this (I just have a bit of experience) but it is probably mainly metallurgy (the Steel alloy, its made from) and the fact that the receiver, falling block etc, are of Investment Cast construction.
Most of the traditional falling block single shots, were made from a block of carbon steel (at best) and all the thru holes etc, were cut/made into this block. I'm sure this isn't as robust and strong as the No 1 designs!

Also and iirc, early No 1's, may have been fully machined, from a block of steel?

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Englishman
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Homer]
      #276488 - 13/01/16 05:12 AM


I very much doubt that the No1 action is any stronger than the early made actions, for a start it is made in the cheapest way possible, a lost wax casting, which can never be as strong as a forging given the better grain structure, but the fact that it is both very cheap, and available, is why so many choose to "hot rod" these actions, thankfully, not many people are willing to destry a Farquhason costing £5000, to build some modern whizz bang caliber rifle, the Italian Sharps and Winchester copies are all made on very strong forged actions, so must be up to most rimmed calibers, the firing pin size being a limiting factor, but as for the "old" Farquharson actions I have .577NE and 475 No2 NE ,as well as .303" that have done 120 years of hard service in Africa and India none of them showing any sign of loosening up. The lost wax (investment casting) is sufficient as has been proven in service, and I think the American made copies choose this method for cheapness, but I am sure they are all strong enough, there should be very little cut out for any rimmed caliber, the problem comes when rimless calibers are used, there is certainly more recoil bearing surface on a falling block action than there is on a bolt action rifle.


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Ireload2
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Englishman]
      #279177 - 12/03/16 04:17 PM

It matters little that you have to pay so much for a 120 year old Farq.
An original Sharps in good condition is expensive too but no one suggests that its strength is related to the current cost. Design and materials are much more important for predicting strength. The modern steels used in a #1 Ruger are much stronger than the steels used in any antique Farq.
If you have any doubt you can read the following book

Materials Selection in Mechanical Design, 4th Edition by Michael Ashby

Your British markets were never very large and cottage industry manufacturing (lot size of one or a few) results in inflated manufacturing costs. Modern materials and manufacturing processes will result in superior products at lower costs.

You should also remember that the old Farqs were not chambered in modern high pressure rounds so lasting 120 years is more an issue of maintenance.

There is no issue with rimless or belted rounds in a Ruger #1. Most of the Ruger #1 chamberings develop much higher pressures than the old rimmed British rounds and give no trouble in operation.



Quote:


I very much doubt that the No1 action is any stronger than the early made actions, for a start it is made in the cheapest way possible, a lost wax casting, which can never be as strong as a forging given the better grain structure, but the fact that it is both very cheap, and available, is why so many choose to "hot rod" these actions, thankfully, not many people are willing to destry a Farquhason costing £5000, to build some modern whizz bang caliber rifle, the Italian Sharps and Winchester copies are all made on very strong forged actions, so must be up to most rimmed calibers, the firing pin size being a limiting factor, but as for the "old" Farquharson actions I have .577NE and 475 No2 NE ,as well as .303" that have done 120 years of hard service in Africa and India none of them showing any sign of loosening up. The lost wax (investment casting) is sufficient as has been proven in service, and I think the American made copies choose this method for cheapness, but I am sure they are all strong enough, there should be very little cut out for any rimmed caliber, the problem comes when rimless calibers are used, there is certainly more recoil bearing surface on a falling block action than there is on a bolt action rifle.




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Englishman
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Ireload2]
      #279701 - 24/03/16 01:22 AM



There is no issue with rimless or belted rounds in a Ruger #1. Most of the Ruger #1 chamberings develop much higher pressures than the old rimmed British rounds and give no trouble in operation.

No one is suggesting that the cost of the rifle makes it any stronger, the cost of a Farquharson is high because it is an antique, and there are many people wanting to buy, this as always, dictates the selling price, the strength of the Farquharson action is beyond question, with a huge breach block sliding up behind the cartridge it can hardly be anything else, my comments on the unsuitability of the rimless case is really only a comparison, why would anyone want more than a rimmed case can deliver in a single shot rifle ? To chamber it for some modern whiz bang wildcat would be silly, the extractor is another objection to a rimless case, at the range there is no problem, but in Africa, under duress it would be very embarrassing to have your sprung loaded extractor slip over the case rim. There is no need for such cartridges, people have tried to use high pressure cartridges in Africa before, most of them are still there!
And no, our market was not very large, but some of the most important and influential people were using these guns, and it takes a lot to build a reputation, but not a lot to loose it.


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Ireload2
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Englishman]
      #280368 - 05/04/16 07:15 PM

Africa is zero degrees hotter than my state. No one has high temp problems here and rimless rounds do not give problems in Ruger #1s.
You know there is no accounting for tastes so people will use whatever they want without any acknowledgement of tradition what so ever. That you think there is no need for some of those cartidges means little. Most of our ammo can be easily found and a lot of yours can't.

Practically everyone that goes to Africa today uses conventional bolt guns in modern high pressure rounds and I know of no one that has ever been killed there because his rifle would not extract.
We have about 3.5 million deer in my state and about 600,000 are killed each year so we have a very high usage of centerfires in all temperatures as well.

Quote:



There is no issue with rimless or belted rounds in a Ruger #1. Most of the Ruger #1 chamberings develop much higher pressures than the old rimmed British rounds and give no trouble in operation.

No one is suggesting that the cost of the rifle makes it any stronger, the cost of a Farquharson is high because it is an antique, and there are many people wanting to buy, this as always, dictates the selling price, the strength of the Farquharson action is beyond question, with a huge breach block sliding up behind the cartridge it can hardly be anything else, my comments on the unsuitability of the rimless case is really only a comparison, why would anyone want more than a rimmed case can deliver in a single shot rifle ? To chamber it for some modern whiz bang wildcat would be silly, the extractor is another objection to a rimless case, at the range there is no problem, but in Africa, under duress it would be very embarrassing to have your sprung loaded extractor slip over the case rim. There is no need for such cartridges, people have tried to use high pressure cartridges in Africa before, most of them are still there!
And no, our market was not very large, but some of the most important and influential people were using these guns, and it takes a lot to build a reputation, but not a lot to loose it.




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DarylS
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Ireload2]
      #280385 - 06/04/16 03:16 AM

Ripp's .416 worked just fine for him in Africa and it's a 65,000PSI (SAAMI) round. Only the 8mm Remington Mag. is higher presssure and it also has been used there and in other hot places, quite successfully at that. The 8mm Mag is is a 67,000PSI (CIP) round. They use the same case, BTW.
Of course all of the WTBY's and many standard ctgs. like the 6mm Rem. opr .270 Winchester are also 65,000PSI rounds, some, only 64,000, yet the H&H .375 is a 62,000psi round - troubles? I haven't heard of any, not to say they haven't happened due to dirt in the chamber, or rot (pits) due to neglect.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla
Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: DarylS]
      #280422 - 06/04/16 01:42 PM

So the highwall was used as a test action by Winchester for years during a time when most of the high pressure cartages were designed I'm sure over pressuring was done day in and day out.an old gunsmith friend of tells a story of them blowing up one repairing it and putting it back to work.Winchester made guns and cartages.rugers are made like alternator covers.and the Italians were never known for their metallurgy ( I should know I raced a ducati for several years).everytime I shot my navy arms rolling block my dad would say don't forget the Italians made the fiat you know

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Ash
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Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: ducmarc]
      #280859 - 14/04/16 07:33 AM

Hey, Fiat made the S76!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PcxK26sBWZc




Cool story about blowing up and repairing the Winchester 1885, and a good read, this thread.

--------------------
.


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
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Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: Ash]
      #280882 - 14/04/16 01:55 PM

I like his mechanic wearing a suit

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: What makes the Ruger No.1 such a strong action? [Re: ducmarc]
      #280912 - 15/04/16 03:03 AM

Amazing 28 liter engine in 1911 and 130mph.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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