mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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I just picked up this little Steyr 1895 from a friend. It's had a bit of use, though not by him but the bore is excellent and it came with the 6.5x53R RCBS dies. I haven't found any maker's name on it so I am curious what you gentleman's opinion might be on the heritage of this little rifle. It is marked 6.5mm rather than 256 Mannlicher. Thanks in advance for looking and for any information.
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kuduae
.400 member
Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1806
Loc: middle of Germany
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To me it looks like a typical G.Gibbs, Bristol, sporterized Mannlicher, once destined for resale by another. Gibbs then imported lots of Mannlichers and Mannlicher - Schoenauers from the Steyr military production then, sporterized them and sold many with their own address. But they also supplied many other gunmakers with such rifles. I have seen such Gibbs - Mannlichers marked by Atkin, Rigby, Purdey and many more. Some retailers apparently did not care to mark these rifles themselves.Early ones were still marked 6.5mm, until the Brits invented their own name for the cartridge, .256. If there is a B - prefix serial number, it is a Gibbs. What is the date on the left receiver wall? If I knew the date and the serial number,I could verify the G.Gibbs provenance.
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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My mistake. I fat fingered the date. It's a Steyr 1893. The serial number is 9153. No prefix in the number and the barrel has the same number.
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Huvius
.416 member
Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3614
Loc: Colorado
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I wouldn't jump to it being built up by Gibbs but surely by some British maker.
You don't see many Gibbs Mannlichers with horn forend tips but I suppose that they could have built it up to another retailers specifications.
Looks a lot like the Steyr with the Fraser trigger that I have.
Very usable rifle for sure.
--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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I bought to be a user. It doesn't hurt that its got some character. I've always wanted one since I read Ross Seyfried's write up on his that had once belonged to Ken Waters.
I just wish I knew the history on this rifle. Its obviously had some history.
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RedOak4392
.224 member
Reged: 06/01/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Michigan , USA
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Beautiful rifle.
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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I'm going to order some 303 brass from which to form cases. Does anyone have a favorite brand? Right now I can get Hornady, PRVI and possibly Remington.
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Spud303
.224 member
Reged: 25/05/11
Posts: 48
Loc: ACT, Australia
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Mart,
When forming 6.5x53R I've actually found Winchester .303 brass is easier to work with than Remington with only the odd case folding up. I also use lanolin grease and haven't had any stuck cases.
That's a nice rifle you've got there that should shoot well (mine's a straight stocked Gibbs retailed by Manton).
Good luck,
Spud
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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Thanks. I haven't found any Winchester brass yet. I'll agree it seems to form better than Remington, at least in some other rounds I've formed. I think the Remington brass runs a bit harder even after annealing. I don't have anyway to substantiate that, just a general impression I get.
The brass I listed is what I've been able to locate recently.
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40645
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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What is the length of the barrel? i know it has a short forend so some of is relative. Just out of interest.
--------------------
John aka NitroX
 ...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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I believe it's a 28" barrel. I'll measure it when I get back from my three week hitch on the north slope. I get home on December 8th.
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Ireload2
.224 member
Reged: 11/08/13
Posts: 41
Loc: USA
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Quote:
I'm going to order some 303 brass from which to form cases. Does anyone have a favorite brand? Right now I can get Hornady, PRVI and possibly Remington.
PRVI will probably be .455 dia at the head and will be too big for your chamber.
I have not measured or even seen Hornady cases. It would be ok if no larger than .451 or .452 at the head. If anyone has any Hornady brass I would like to know the head diamter.
Both Remington and Winchester work well (.451 to .452) but they will need to be annealed after forming.
You might check the diameter of the open end of your FL die and your chamber to see what is going to fit.
I have worked on forming this caliber a lot. With the right dies I can get 100% good cases but I use more dies than most.
1.It is a good idea to shove the shoulder back with a .308 Win FL die but a 7.35 Carcano FL die works (.317 neck die dia) even better since it supports the skinny .303 shoulder a little better and prevents it from buckling.
2. Then I use a 6.5 Carcano trim die (.300 dia) with the shoulder set long
3. Then I use the 6.5X53R trim die (.290 dia)
4. Then I use the 6.5X53R FL die. (.284 dia) I strip the guts out of my bolt and use it to set this die so there is a slight drag on the bolt when closed. This sets the shoulder against the chamber shoulder and reduces case stretching. Just be sure you don't push the shoulder back to far with one of the earlier dies.
Necks do not have to be turned or reamed because my chamber necks (4 of them) measure .300.
If you find the Dutch drawings the dimension for the case length converts to 2.112". But my chambers measure 2.150" so I trim the case to 2.148 for the first firing. Since the .303 has a smaller shoulder diameter the case gets shorter when fired the first time. They will shorten .004 to .007. After the first firing I neck size and trim everything to 2.145.
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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Thank you. I'll order some Remington brass. I have made a couple of cases from 30-40 brass using a 308 die set a bit long to set the shoulder back. I trimmed to 2.115 and then sized in a 6.5x53R FL die. They came out perfect and chambered in my rifle. I have a 30-40 so I don't really want to use up my brass. The 303 is closer in dimensions anyway.
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AlanD
.275 member
Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia
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This is a particularly interesting rifle as it has the crossed pennant British military proof mark. Both on the chamber and near the magazine well.
I have seen a few 6.5mm Jeffrey sporting rifles with this same stamping and just missed out on one so marked, here in Australia.
I have also seen another rifle in .375 2 1/2 inch on this forum a few years ago which I commented about a few years ago.
Despite looking for information on these rifles in the National Archives in London I have yet to find any reference to them. I did however find a reference to some 6.5mm barrels being supplied to the Ministry of Munitions in WW1, from Rigby.
Does it have the crossed pennent mark on the bolt by any chance?
Regards
Alan David
Sydney
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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Alan,
I'll have to check when I get home next month. I'm working remote on the north slope until then.
Mart
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ESOTERIC
.224 member
Reged: 07/02/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Wisconsin
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All of these British retailed Steyr rifles that I have seen were made on model 1892 actions. The date on the left side action wall is the date of manufacture, not the model number. Since they were made in Austria they are marked with the metric caliber 6.5mm. The ".256" designation was a British custom similar to calling the 7x57 a "275"
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ESOTERIC
.224 member
Reged: 07/02/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Wisconsin
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Alan,
I have a Pape retailed M92 6.5 that also has the crossed pennant marks you mentioned. My Lancaster does not have them. By the way, the Jeffery you just missed in Australia on the AAA auction is now in my vault. Initial shooting indicates it will be quite accurate.
Best wishes
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5318
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm going to order some 303 brass from which to form cases. Does anyone have a favorite brand? Right now I can get Hornady, PRVI and possibly Remington.
PRVI will probably be .455 dia at the head and will be too big for your chamber.
I have not measured or even seen Hornady cases. It would be ok if no larger than .451 or .452 at the head. If anyone has any Hornady brass I would like to know the head diamter.
Both Remington and Winchester work well (.451 to .452) but they will need to be annealed after forming.
You might check the diameter of the open end of your FL die and your chamber to see what is going to fit.
I have worked on forming this caliber a lot. With the right dies I can get 100% good cases but I use more dies than most.
1.It is a good idea to shove the shoulder back with a .308 Win FL die but a 7.35 Carcano FL die works (.317 neck die dia) even better since it supports the skinny .303 shoulder a little better and prevents it from buckling.
2. Then I use a 6.5 Carcano trim die (.300 dia) with the shoulder set long
3. Then I use the 6.5X53R trim die (.290 dia)
4. Then I use the 6.5X53R FL die. (.284 dia) I strip the guts out of my bolt and use it to set this die so there is a slight drag on the bolt when closed. This sets the shoulder against the chamber shoulder and reduces case stretching. Just be sure you don't push the shoulder back to far with one of the earlier dies.
Necks do not have to be turned or reamed because my chamber necks (4 of them) measure .300.
If you find the Dutch drawings the dimension for the case length converts to 2.112". But my chambers measure 2.150" so I trim the case to 2.148 for the first firing. Since the .303 has a smaller shoulder diameter the case gets shorter when fired the first time. They will shorten .004 to .007. After the first firing I neck size and trim everything to 2.145.
I have 100 rounds of new unfired Hornady brass. I just measured 10 of them at random. They measure a uniform .452" at the head. They appear to be of very nice quality.
Esoteric,
Good to see you posting here. I know you have been here for a while. We welcome your knowledgeable input.
Curl
--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
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ESOTERIC
.224 member
Reged: 07/02/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Wisconsin
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Curl,
I have just recently formed 50 rounds of new Hornady .303 brass to .256 Mannlicher. They formed perfectly with no losses. I form by first trimming to length then run in a .308 FL die, then a 7x57 FL die and then in the 6.5 FL die. Then I do a final trim as the cases grow in length during forming. Loaded rounds chamber freely in three M92's a Lancaster, a Pape and a Jeffery.
Best wishes
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ESOTERIC
.224 member
Reged: 07/02/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Wisconsin
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PS My Hornady brass measures .451" at the head.
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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I found a good deal on 200 new Remington 303 brass. It should be there when I get home.
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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Well I finally made it home from the slope and got a chance to spend some time reloading and forming brass.
The barrel is 26 inches, slugs out at .266 and there is no cross pennant on the bolt though it does have a crown over a V.
I fought with trying to make brass from the Remington 303. I set the shoulder back using a 308 trim die. I set it long so I didn't set the shoulder back too far. When I tried running into the 6.5x53R dies the shoulder would buckle. There was no excess lube in the die but it just wouldn't size the neck without buckling the shoulder. Fortunately there was a gun show in town today. I stopped by and picked up a set of Redding 7-08 dies. That proved to be the ticket. After setting the shoulder back with the 308 die, I made a pass through the 7-08 die and then through the 6.5x53 die. It worked great.
I loaded up a hundred rounds with some 100 grain bullets I had laying around that I would never use otherwise. I'll fire form the cases with those then anneal the cases and start working on some loads with 160 Hornady and Woodleigh round nose, and some RWS 156 grain H Mantle hollow points.
Here's a picture of the crown and V on the bolt.
Edited by mart (14/12/15 01:41 AM)
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AlanD
.275 member
Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia
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Mart, thanks for the info on the bolt.
ESOTERIC, I am glad the Jeffery went to a good home. Does your Pape of Newcastle rifle have a Pape serial number? The records for Pape exist and there may be information in the Pape ledgers about who the original purchases was, especially if the rifle was allocated a Pape serial number.
Would there be any chance of getting some photos of your crossed pennant Lancaster? Also have you been able to track down any details details of the date of sale and the purchaser?
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
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mart
.300 member
Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 107
Loc: Alaska
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Out of curiosity has anyone used Vihtavouri N160 with the 156-160 grain bullets in either a 6.5x53R or a 6.5x54 MS? I have most of an 8 pound jug and really not much in which to use it.
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ESOTERIC
.224 member
Reged: 07/02/13
Posts: 10
Loc: Wisconsin
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Alan,
The crossed pennant marks are on my Pape not the Lancaster. I believe the number 11147 found on the bottom of the trigger guard would be the Pape serial number, rather than the matching four digit numbers found on receiver and barrel shank, which I take to be Steyr numbers.
I will try to get some photos of this rifle posted with assistance from Curl.
How do I go about finding information about the Pape rifle from the serial number?
Best,
Photos added by Curl:
Edited by CptCurl (18/12/15 09:51 AM)
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