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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
458 lott and A-square ammo
      #27188 - 03/03/05 10:23 AM

Well I decided(finally) the other day to see how my A-square ammo fed in me Lott--it's the only ammo I have, as it was the only ammo available at the time I purchased my rifle--

it didn't feed--round 1-5 stuck each time on the ramp as it was being pushed forward into the chamber--and I mean stuck- not even double stroking or more would get them to feed--would mar the case pretty good--

so I called Jim Brockman and asked him if there was an option--before I sent it to him--he told me to be very careful--so take note that you are your own warranty station if you do this and have no one to blame if you muck it up--

massage the ramp was his answer and polish the rails and check the extractor-- DO NOT decrease the height of the ramp--just lessen the angle a tad--and be careful on the ramp and extractor(I won't play with the extractor as I don't think it's the prob)--

so I did--it now is working a whole lot better, but it's still not right, as rounds will still get stuck--some will feed and some won't and it's not always the same ones that get stuck--

I noticed also that my follower won't always sit level or push the next round up tight to the bottom of the rail-- so over on AR I got some tips and I've ordered another spring from Brownells--- Mauser + 10%---we shall see if this helps--if it does make it better then I will maybe massage the rails next to help also---

I also called CZ USA to ask them, but they don't have a stronger spring, but they did send me one of the stock springs free of charge--

now this could be just an A-Square dilemna also, but until I get some time to make up some reloads this is what I have to work with and they should feed regardless if I use them for hunting or not---I have the solids, dead tough and lion load and they all got or get stuck now at some point--

I'll keep ya posted as this goes on--

again proceed with caution if you tackle this job--

chris

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27189 - 03/03/05 10:35 AM

Dude, that has always been a problem with the CZ's. Rough feeding ramps and sometimes chambers. Of course if the magazine springs are weak, how're you going to chamber a round reliably? If I were you, I'd only massage it so much. I think a better course of action would be to send it to Brockman and get a completely different rifle back. Nothing in life is cheap but I think the use of an expert is the only way to go.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: 475Guy]
      #27192 - 03/03/05 12:53 PM

I didn't buy it from Brockman--but he did have it and it fed for him ok with different ammo---I'll try the spring and maybe a little rail polishing and see what happens--if I can't get it then it will go to Brockman along with the A-Square ammo to see what can be done---it's definitely much better, as I can get them all to feed, but some take a double stroke to do so--chris

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27194 - 03/03/05 01:53 PM

csutton7,

I would request you to contact the new owner of A Square, Jim Smith directly. He is an extremely helpful and good man and has set a number of problems that people had with the earlier management right.

If you need help contacting him, just let me know.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Nframe
.275 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 79
Loc: United States
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27205 - 03/03/05 05:26 PM

SOB!!! something else for me to fix on mine!!!!!

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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27207 - 03/03/05 06:04 PM

Mehul--thanks--but I'm not sure it's a 100% ammo prob yet--read below---

I posted this on the AR thus some names will make no sense--

I've been tinkering(massaged the bottom of the ramp and the follower(thanks to Zimbabwe) and polish) and let's say we call the first round put in the mag box it #5, then #4 and so on to #1---

#1 hangs up--the belt on the round gets right to the step in the feed rail when it binds--there's no burr--it's getting pinched in 3 places--the actual bullet is in the chamber and sitting tight up against the top of the chamber, then it's hitting the ramp and finally the rail comes into play--

#2 feeds with a slight hiccup once in awhile--just needs a tad more force to send it home--not much but more than #4 & #5

#3 is like #1

#4 & #5 are great as long as they are close to being tight to the feed rail--this came to fruition with Zimbabwe's tip--massaged the follower and no probs with these two rounds, as long at they are in position--which they pretty much seem to be every time(need to cycle a bunch more to be 100% sure)


my first thought is maybe the spring is too stiff and won't allow the rounds in the mag to be pushed down so that it can be sent home---

then I thought could this A-Square stuff be too long--so I measured it---3.512"--well within the 3.6" max--

is the mag box to tight side to side for the rounds to move freely--they come up pretty good and seem to move down ok when I push them, but maybe it's too tight when trying to cycle the action??

the last two work great--so I don't think it's the ammo being too long--

the spring may have a slight say in the matter, but I'm not sure--

can it be the rails aren't cut right--I'm fairly sure if I take that step back an 1/8" or so my probs are history--same if I wack the very top of the ramp, but the ramp I think is the last place to play for now--

one other thing is to massage the inside of the mag box and the underneath sides of the rails to give the ammo some side to side movement--but the mag box is so thin I'm not sure this will help, but maybe---

can some of you guys measure the length of you ammo and tell me what you get and then check your bullets inside the mag box and let me know if there's some play side to side--

chris

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csutton7
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Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27272 - 05/03/05 05:22 PM

tried a factory spring I received from CZ today and no change--next will be a 10% stronger spring which is on order from Brownells--will keep you posted---chris

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
Posts: 581
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Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27273 - 05/03/05 05:40 PM

I've had similar feeding problems on two 602's... in both cases is was the extractor, which was too tight and not allowing the cartridge head to completely slide under its control prior to being pushed in the chamber by the bolt.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: new_guy]
      #27277 - 05/03/05 10:50 PM

I don't think it's the extractor as the round is stuck under the the feed rail still before it can pop up--there's a step in the feed rail that allows the round to pop up under the extractor, but when the belt of the round gets to that step it binds/jams--- a double stroke will sometimes get it to feed and other times it won't feed with a double stroke---

I'm going to look at my CZ 375 and see what kind of side to side play there is of the rounds as they're in the mag box--if it's tight then I don't think there's anything to do concerning the Lott mag box unless the stronger spring fixes the prob-- a thought just came to me, since I massaged the follower the last two rounds feed great, so maybe the rounds have some side to side play now which allows the round to clear the feed rail step to be chambered---if this is the case then widening the mag box/feed rail for some side to side movement of the rounds may be the answer--I need to see if there's play in those last two rounds--this may be the answer--

if not then the next step may be to attack the step in that feed rail, which to me looks like if I move that step back an 1/8" or so the rounds would feed, what are the downsides to doing this--the rounds won't stay in the mag box is about the only thing I can see happen, but I think by just moving the step a little this wouldn't be an issue, but since the last two rounds feed pretty good now I really need to think this over, as why do they feed and not the other rounds--is it because I have side to side play in those rounds now???

finally would be to go after the ramp height--but this is the most tricky part of all, because you would be messing with the bearing surface of the locking lug once the round is chambered to be fired--- I don't know how much can be taken away from the ramp height before you have mangled your action--it may be gunsmith time at this point--chris

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csutton7
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Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27499 - 08/03/05 01:03 PM

after talking with CZ I found out the feed rail is ok or at least they don't change that when they ream it out from the 458 winnie---

thought it might be the mag box, so I removed a little mat'l and polished the inside of it to give the rounds some room to move--didn't work--

so then I looked over the A-square ammo that I've been playin with and noticed that some of the actual bullets had a ding or small crease where they're hitting the chamber when trying to feed-- I know it was stated by someone that maybe it's the shape of the bullet and now I think this is the real culprit, so about the only thing I can do is massage the ramp some more--I'm debating on doing more of this or sending it to Jim Brockman--will let you know

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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27582 - 10/03/05 11:08 AM

IT IS THE A-SQUARE AMMO that is causing me fits--I decided to see if I could, by hand, just insert some NF and Barnes bullets into some once fired brass I just received off of ebay--I was able to and so no problems with these feeding and I even had the barnes stuff out to length 3.7+ and they fed--it's the very round nose that's the problem on the A-Square loads---so I either try and sell this stuff, keep massaging the ramp or cut the relief in the top of the belt stop in the chamber, send it to the smith and let him work it over--of take $260 worth of ammo and shoot it up for brass--I guess I could keep the lion loads and send the other's back--I may do that--we shall see--at least I have my answer to the prob--looks like I need to get to reloading--chris

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nitro476
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Reged: 21/10/04
Posts: 120
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27788 - 15/03/05 11:21 AM

OK, you are in Sf so call Steve Heilmann in Grass Valley and tell him I referred you. This guy is considered one of the best in the business and when he finishes going over your action it will feel like it is on ball bearings! His number is 530-272-8758. Tell him Dave Kropelnicki told you to call.

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csutton7
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Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: nitro476]
      #27789 - 15/03/05 12:51 PM

Nitro476(Dave)--thanks for the info--chris

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27795 - 15/03/05 03:35 PM

In reply to:

IT IS THE A-SQUARE AMMO that is causing me fits



Maybe not.
If your CZ has the same cutaway on the right side of the chamber as the 602 which is there to clear the extractor, this can cause problems with round nose softpoint projectiles.
It tends to be sharp at the edge and can catch in the soft exposed lead tip and create feed jam problems.
Pointed bullets are usually ok.
My 602 458 used to feed hornady 500 RN softs fine but would often jam winchester round nose softs as they had a bit more area of lead exposed than hornadys.

My advice is similar to others here which is to get a pro to sort it out for you, especially if the rifle is to be used for serious hunting.

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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: 4seventy]
      #27800 - 15/03/05 04:34 PM

4seventy--yes you could be or are more than likely right here on this--but one can't be to blame without the other--I will most likely send it away at this point to insure I don't totally screw something up that I have little knowledge on--

thanks again for everyone's input--chris

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27808 - 15/03/05 10:02 PM

cs7

Damn, dude, I'm glad you're going through all this stuff and not me. I'd probably been ready to throw stuff over a cliff by now. BTW, just stick with the Hornady ammo and then handload the rest of your rounds and you'll be a very happy camper.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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csutton7
.275 member


Reged: 17/02/05
Posts: 70
Loc: SF, CA
Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: 475Guy]
      #27809 - 15/03/05 11:01 PM

475guy--that's certainly an option, but with my luck I'd get somewhere and my ammo would get lost and the only thing available would be A-Square--I'd be just a little bent at that moment--not worth the chance--so I'll get it taken care of sometime in the near future---chris

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**DONOTDELETE**





Re: 458 lott and A-square ammo [Re: csutton7]
      #27818 - 16/03/05 02:02 PM

I have had the same problem 4seventy mentions except it was a Model 70 458.

In staggered feed magazines the 458 Win and 458 Lott when loaded with blunt bullets are a bit like the WSSMs, that is, they are always on the verge of jamming and especially if the bolt is really rammed forward quickly.

A CRF is especially critical because if there is too much resistance to the case rim sliding up under the extractor the round will tip slightly and then you have the bullet catch the edge of the chamber.

Mike

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