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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: NitroX]
      #26855 - 26/02/05 12:37 AM

Rustam
There is absolutely no doubt tigers are being poached in India, in fact it was not many years ago that a Gurkha was caught getting on a bus headed out of Ranthambore with the remains of two tigers he had poached wrapped in a bit of sacking. I still reckon though, the main threat to the countryside in India, remains people pressure, and the ever increasing population of the country.
On my recent trip to India, I had the good fortune of befriending the range officer for the forest reserve at Molem in Goa. We sat on a hill and heard the calling of a pair of mating tigers that had come across the border from Karnataka and I managed to get some good shots of Gaur and sambhar, which I will attempt to post up here.
I notice you are from Bangalore. Have you visited Van Ingen, the taxidermist ? I have a Tiger and Himalayan Bear rug mounts done by him many years ago.They really are works of art.
I agree with you about Nilgai. They are like shooting donkeys. Now wildboar, driven towards the line by local villagers, on the gallop,grunting,clicking their tusks together and full of attitude....now that's what I call sport.
M.


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RHB
.300 member


Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 136
Loc: India
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #26865 - 26/02/05 03:00 AM

Mpofu,

There's no denying that lack of habitat and prey are the main reason for the decline in wildlife numbers.

I moved to Bangalore at the fag end of 1996. This is the first I am hearing of Van Ingen. Where in Bangalore did he have his shop?

Long live the mighty boar!

Rustam

P.S.: Look forward to seeing your pics.


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #26876 - 26/02/05 07:25 AM

Mpofu,

There are several gun factories that are active in Kashmir. Some of the 12 bore doubles made there are excellent in their price range. I confirmed with a friend at Reuters who did an article on hunting there that in 2003 after a long time pheasant hunting was reopened there.

As far as the "gai" in Nilgai (Blue Bulls as the British called them in a literal translation) are concerned, they have been hunted for a long time and they were never considered sacred like cattle were. I have had ancestors - both Hindu and Jain (incredibly) - who hunted and there are Nilgai trophies that were displayed quite openly even close to a hundred years ago. There are tribes like the Hindu Bishnoi and the Muslim Meo in Rajasthan who are totally opposed to hunting but there have been a number of others who have always hunted.

I am more and more inclined to believe that the tigers in Sariska were poached by organised gangs trafficking in animal organs to China. The Tibetans have been doing it for some time now despite the Dalai Lama asking them to stop and it is possible that Gurkhas are at it as well to finance the insurrection there. In Assam the ULFA have been active in poaching rhinoceros for a long time. And take it from me, in almost EVERY instance the forest department and police are hand in glove with the poachers. I know India too well to trust it's authorities in any sense.

The tiger will be extinct in India within the next decade from what is happening.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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MacNaughton
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: NitroX]
      #26898 - 26/02/05 03:06 PM

I`ve seen tiger `parts` for sale in Hong Kong - including a skin priced @ $10,000 US. A friend who is from Hong Kong reported that in S.China Tiger parts are freely available and skins in almost any quantity are available with 3-6 months notice.
I reckon that`s a Dalmatian as well Mehul - my old German Shepherd would have been able to tell as he hated Dalmatians with a passion !

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`


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MacNaughton
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Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: MacNaughton]
      #26900 - 26/02/05 03:11 PM

Nope, you`re right Mehul, that dog is far to high on the rear hocks to be a Dalmatian,

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`


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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #26947 - 27/02/05 06:01 AM

Mehul,
I would not have a Kashmiri built shotgun, if they paid me to have one.
Shooting pheasant in the foothills of the himalayas, is very much a chance thing, you need to get up there and try it me old mate.
Having come up against the locals and their attitudes to Nilgai in Haryana and UP, I would seriously not recommend it.You could get lynched !
Tiger poaching will always be a problem for as long as the Chinese pay $10,000 for a dry tiger penis....
M.


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mehulkamdar
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Posts: 3688
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #26961 - 27/02/05 04:49 PM

Mpofu,

I have no idea which parts of Haryana you're talking about, but obviously we are not talking about the same places. Don't you worry, I have no problem hunting and I shall be doing a hunt on private land without trouble.

I have not hunted pheasant in Kashmir but I do have friends who do hunt in Mussorie and they are servicemen and childhood buddies of mine.

BTW aren't you DJ from AR? One of your posts is identical to an old one there.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27001 - 28/02/05 07:51 PM

Mehul,
I suspect you misread me somewhat.
I am simply generating a bit of interest in this thread, and giving an opposite view on some of the subjects. I have no intention of being confrontational, or offensive.
That said, Mussoorie is 6,ooo ft above sea level, the valleys on average, apart from being heavily shrubbed, drop about 1,000 ft on their way down to the Doon valley. You cannot stalk or drive pheasant here. What you do is, you feed them into the area and then pick them off with a 22 rifle. It is not sport, just shooting for the pot.
I hope you are wrong about Tiger being wiped out within 10 years. I would be grateful if it did not happen in my lifetime.
If you visit Mussoorie, drop in on the Skinner family, they live at Sikander Hall, just outside the town. A forefather was responsible for the creation of Skinners Horse, a cavalry reg of the British army. Old man Skinner is a great hunter, and angler (Masheer). You would love some of his stories and pics.
M.
I still rekon nilgai shooting is like shooting donkeys, and yes, I used to post on AR as DJ, till I lost my password.



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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: RHB]
      #27002 - 28/02/05 07:58 PM

Rustam,
Van Ingen has long retired, though the old man apparently has a small coffee plantation out in the Nilgiris somewhere. He still has a collection of some of his old stuff that is well worth treating your eyes to. I can get you his details, though I imagine all you need to do is ask at the local gunshop.
Van Ingens were the top taxidermists in India, and even did trophies from Africa. Corbett sent almost all his tigers to Van Ingen.
M.
M


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RHB
.300 member


Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 136
Loc: India
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #27003 - 28/02/05 08:50 PM

Hello Mpofu,

Thank you for the information on Van Ingen. I know a few old time shikaris here and have seen some of their trophies. Will ask them if they had been done by Van Ingen.

Regards,

Rustam


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #27056 - 01/03/05 07:08 PM

Mpofu/DJ,

I do not wish to bring up what happened more than a year ago on AR but, just to remind you, I called some of your claims of participating in an elephant cull in India BS and I insist that this is what they are. With you hiding behind a computer with the anonymity of a silly log in name and with no contact or location information, I have no choice but to call your bluff here - it is important that no one gets taken in by your tall claims.

I am going to ignore you in the future as I know what you are. I shall leave it to the other members to make their decision about you.



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27057 - 01/03/05 08:45 PM

Mehul,
Sorry mate, I have no idea about elephant culls, you certainly have the wrong guy here me old mate, or else you have lost your marbles.
Looks like your knowledge about me is about as accurate as your knowledge on Indian hunting.
M.



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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #27068 - 02/03/05 12:00 AM

Mehul,
In view of the fact that you appear not to be responding to my e-mail........
I managed to get on to the AR website, and did a search on all posts made by myself (dj). There were 103 posts and none of them talk about elephant culls, in fact we got on pretty well (apart from an apology from you), so, either you can go back to AR, do a search and prove me wrong or else be man enough and apologise.
For what it's worth, I shall not be returning to a site which has a prat like you as a moderator.
M.


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #27072 - 02/03/05 02:20 AM

DJ/Mpofu,

I never did apologise to you and neither do I have any intention of doing that this time. AR may or may not have deleted your old post - I know that they lost and deleted a large number when they changed to new software. Your post on Nilgai being worshipped as cows is complete nonsense and is clearly misleading to members here.

I joined as a moderator at John Hahn's request and if he feels that I should step down, I shall be more than happy to do that. I have no intention of harming participation at these or any other forums. That said being a moderator, imposes a responsibility on me to make sure that facts are posted. Nilgai are not milk cattle and the Hindus don't worship them. Suggesting this is misleading in the extreme.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27076 - 02/03/05 03:16 AM

Gentlemen

Maybe cool down a bit. I don't see the cause for the argument here on NE.com. As for whatever discussions were had, or arguments on AR a long time ago, perhaps that's the venue to have that discussion. It's always been an unofficial practice here that we do things differently here, and if people have had arguments elsewhere, its best to leave them there rather than introduce them here.

People all have their own opinions and don't always agree with each other. That sometimes makes for robust discussions which can add spice to message boards. But it doesn't mean everyone has to have the same opinion.

I hope you both continue to enjoy and join in at NE.com.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: NitroX]
      #27078 - 02/03/05 03:39 AM

NitroX,

My applogies to you for this controversy as I have no intention of abusing your hospitality or participation by anyone here.

I shall not be posting on this matter further.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27080 - 02/03/05 04:15 AM

Mehul

They aren't my forums. The members make them up. The forum leaders all have done great jobs and this "new" forum has grown due to your efforts and your friends whom also joined.

Spirited discussions always happen from time to time. I should know I have been in enough elsewhere and usually regret them later. I have to behave here fortunately.

I think this argument has been more on perception on what has been said rather than true differences. For example I too read some ten years ago Nilgai were thought of as cattle by some Indians. This was written by an Australian who hunted nilgai during a visit to your country. I have no idea whether he was right or wrong, and in such a populous country maybe he was both right for the area he was in, but maybe generally it was not a widely held view.

This is nothing wrong with having differing opinions as I said before. One state's one cases and sometimes goes too far. But its not life and death!

I hope both you and Mpofu continue to join in the discussions. The PM feature is a good way to exchange blows without actually hitting each other ! I certainly have used it that way a couple of times in the past.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27104 - 02/03/05 09:56 AM

John, I take your advice, however, I feel I ought to respond to a couple of things.
1. If one were to go to North India, as opposed to reading books or picking info off the internet, then you will soon find out that local people in some parts of North India, will lynch you if you shoot a Nilgai. That is a fact, and anyone who has actually been there will confirm this.
2. The state of Kashmir is virtually a war zone, and anyone wandering through the countryside with a firearm, in search of Pheasants, will find himself in some serious shit,either with the terrorists or the authorities.
3.Not all forest department staff are corrupt. There are some damn hard working guys out there, who put their lives on the line in order to protect the animals and habitat they have responsibility for.I know a few of them.
4.All forms of shooting, anywhere in the subcontinent are banned. For anyone to suggest they can go to India and shoot on private land, is simply talk about commiting a criminal offence.One can easily put this one to the test. Just let me know where and when one intends shooting...
5. I will take a public bet with anyone who reckons that the Tiger will be extinct in India within 10 years, and if there is so much concern about the poaching of tigers, has anyone actually complained to the director of project Tiger, or the WWF, or the Govt of India? I have relevant e-mail addresses. In fact I will be inviting some of the folks from the Wildlife and forest Depts to this forum . They will be most interested in what is being written about them, and may also have some useful contributions to make.
6. With the state of deforestation in the subcontinent, shooting in India could quite easily be compared to canned hunts in South Africa.
7. Pheasant shooting in Mussorie ? More chances of shooting a Kangaroo on mount Everest.
I have not directed the above observations to any person in particular.
I hope you like the pics. Please feel free to use them on the forum, there are plenty more where they came from. The quality is not too clever, as I am not a very good photographer.
M.


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MacNaughton
.275 member


Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #27115 - 02/03/05 02:29 PM

Strange isn`t it that one reads of the Nilgai being sacred to Indians yet the drastic decline of their numbers in the 1980s was attributed by the Indian authorities to hunting and loss of habitat - and the hunting was not by foreigners. The `loss of habitat` continues yet the animals` numbers have increased dramatically - to the extent that the relationship between farmers and Nilgai is quoted as being one of `constant conflict`. In Haryana Nilgai numbers are `causing concern` because of their feeding on agricultural crops and illegal hunting is known to occur and is increasing.
Deforestation is of little consequence to the Nilgai because they actively avoid wooded areas - probably because that is where Tigers used to lie !
The Nilgai were imported on to the King Ranch in Texas in the early 1900s as a second animal ( after cattle ) to herd and market. It was rapidly discovered that they were extremely difficult to contain and could not be controlled !
In Texas they are regarded as challenging animals to hunt and difficult to put down - charges of 150 yards after a `fatal` shot are not uncommon.
For anyone to state that the Nilgai is universally regarded as sacred in India is not only incorrect but is an arrogant oversimplifiction. As in all things concerning religion the definition of `sacred` is open to the interpretation of the individual and the individual community. The priority of the farmer is to feed his family and if the Nilgai prevents that farmer from doing so he will be forced to take appropriate action. There is no doubt that in many communities the ban on hunting Nilgai is not only resented but its` repeal is considered a growing and urgent necessity.
If there is one thing that is for certain it is that Tiger numbers are decreasing in India. How long it will be before the numbers reach an unsustainable level is uncertain but unless a far greater conservation effort is made, and made soon, there can be little doubt that level of numbers will occur in the foreseeable future.
One of my college lecturers used to tell stories of hunting Pheasant, Quail and another bird whose name escapes me in Mussorie. The birds were not brought in by feeding and shot with a .22 rifle but were walked-up and shot on the wing with a shotgun.


--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: MacNaughton]
      #27128 - 02/03/05 04:39 PM

Gentlemen

Feel free to have a debate on these issues. It is better when it is not personal and instead relates to the facts or the perceived facts.

To an outsider I must say I don't know whom is correct or not. I believe it is not impossible that both can be correct, given different experiences.

Carry on as you will, Gentlemen.


***

Mpofu

Sending you a PM. Just want to ask you something off public forum.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: MacNaughton]
      #27129 - 02/03/05 04:50 PM

MacNaughton,

Speaking of no one in particular but when someone imagines getting apologies from me in the past, I guess I have to wonder about arrogance in the extreme. And when the authority equates Nilgai with milk cattle... I have more than 300 published articles on Hinduism including at the Universities of Giessen and Austin but then I am up against an almighty commentator who knows all that there is to know on any subject anyone could think of and more.

Perhaps, the fact that tigers have been wiped out in Sariska and that they have become 19 fewer in Ranthambhore in the past year is also inconsequential. And, when someone has to tow the Forest Department's line, they are sure not to have heard about Nirmal Ghosh or even to have the computer ability to do a websearch and check with him about my personal work in this field.

I shall look forward to hearing from the Forest official - presumably this is the official who called Valmik Thapar a "fat twat" - there are more than a few people who would like to hear what other revelations the man in question has to make. I would welcome them on a public forum. I am sure that there are more than a few journals that would like to hear about this. The fee that I get paid from this article would go to www.indianjungles.com and I shall post evidence of this when it happens.

Best wishes and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Mpofu
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 140
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: MacNaughton]
      #27150 - 02/03/05 08:09 PM

The Nilgai is not a sacred animal, neither is it an animal from the 'milk herd', I never said that,but, I repeat, some areas in Northern India have people who consider the animal closely related to the cow, and get very nasty when they are shot. This is a fact, I do not agree with it, I never agreed with it, but it is a problem, especially for the farmers, as they do some considerable crop damage. In fact the bulls have been known to turn aggressive when chased off the fields.
As far as poached animals are concerned, Elephant , (the god, Ganpathi) are also poached, as are Hanuman Langurs(the monkey god, hanuman) and so are peafowl.This doesn't stop them getting shot.
Bar headed geese breed in the main, on a lake in Tibet.Their numbers are comparitively low, they don't eat well, are not particularly good flyers,and are pretty stupid, in that they will decoy into pages of crushed newspaper. Why would a real sportsman want to shoot them?
I have walked the hills of Mussoorie, it takes the best part of a day to walk from one hill to another. Walked up pheasant? I think not.
Tigers will not be extinct in India within 10 years, I am willing to bet on it.
M.
Talking about evidence, anyone who is a member of the AR forums is invited to do a search on dj, go down to the bottom half of the page, and you will read, and I quote 'DJ, I apologise'.Then read the name of the man who wrote it.
McNaughton , the other bird your college lecturer was probably referring to may have been the Chukor, a mountain partridge.
I did mention that I did not want to be confrontational or offensive, unfortunately it has gone down that road, so very much like exchanging views and general chat around a campfire, if it becomes unpleasant, one simply gets up and leaves.
Adios





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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: Mpofu]
      #27172 - 03/03/05 02:06 AM

Mpofu/DJ,

I am sure that your computer abilities are not so seriously limited that you cannot cut and paste a text or a link. Apologise? For what? And to whom? You? That's a belly laugh!

I shall be waiting for the Forest Department Officials and their views on Indian wildlife. The comment on Valmik Thapar is with him already, and I have saved it on my PC so that it is not edited or altered by you.

I'm waiting - organisations that work to conserve the tiger need money and my publishers pay well. Since you're so concerned about conserving this animal, make my day. Bring your friends here and let me do my story.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27196 - 03/03/05 02:13 PM

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IEK20050302130320&Page=K&Title=Southern+News+%2D+Karnataka&Topic=0

Will the State's tigers take the Ranthambore route?
Thursday March 3 2005 00:00 IST
BANGALORE: It was the mystery of the missing tigers in Rajasthan's world renowned Sariska and Ranthambore sanctuaries that set the alarm bells ringing. And the ripple effect has reached Karnataka raising queries about the safety of tigers in the State's numerous reserves.

Unlike Sariska where they are largely elusive, tigers can actually be seen in the State's sanctuaries. But this is no reason for complacency as police have been hot on the tiger poaching and illegal wildlife trading trail in various parts of the State.

As recently as Feb 21, the police in Kushalnagar arrested two persons and recovered a tiger skin which they were trying to sell in the Tibetan Colony at Bailkuppa. And this is no isolated case: several such seizures have been reported earlier also from Coorg and Bangalore. Ironically, the Forest Department, the so-called custodian of these animals, usually become aware of these cases only through media reports.

But what is sure to give wildlife lovers the jitters is the advent of a gang of poachers belonging to Katni, Jabalpur in Madhya Pradesh, whose expertise in the `jaw trapping' of tigers spells doom for the big cat. What's worse is that the gang is part of the international tiger trade and so has plenty of monetary incentive to commit such crimes. The first incident came to light in 2002 in the Nagarahole reserve when forest officials rescued a jaw trapped tiger and arrested 47 members belonging to the gang. The second incident was in the Bandipur park in 2004, where at least eight gang members were arrested.

Conservator of Forests (WL) Anur Reddy says the Forest Department can only stand by and watch as their jurisdiction does not extend to these areas and so they cannot investigate the cases. ``We can only visit these locations and for all practical purposes, we have to depend on the police,'' he says.

``But, there's a silver lining: Project Tiger has decided to set up a Central investigation agency to hunt down inter-state poaching gangs and tackle the problem. As of now our hands are tied. Once such an agency is set up, we can hope to get help,'' he says.

But poaching is only one problem tigers face: Man-animal conflict and the construction of highways inside protected areas are also big challenges.

The casualty list makes for sad reading: At least four tigers which strayed into coffee estates in Coorg and Chikmagalur were killed over the last five years. Another two tigers, which usually roamed the Nugu area, adjoining Bandipur, have simply vanished without a trace, possibly falling prey to the perils of excessive human intervention. Additionally, an adult tiger was run over by a speeding lorry in the Bandipur reserve on the Gundlupet-Sultanbateri highway.

When such incidents come into the public domain via the media, the Forest Department wakes up and swings into action. But no concrete, long-term steps have been taken to address these problems.

Posted with no one in particular in mind.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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RHB
.300 member


Reged: 06/02/05
Posts: 136
Loc: India
Re: Old Indian hunting grounds [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #27209 - 03/03/05 07:22 PM

Thank you, Mehul, even though it makes depressing reading.

Rustam


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