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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets

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AbitNutz
.275 member

Reged: 02/09/12
Posts: 58
Loc: Ohio, USA

Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project
#271687 - 14/10/15 09:17 PM

So here's a quick pic of some test ammo I've just made for my 450 NE project. I'm having a Lyman 1878...which is a Pedersoli Sharps 1877 and one of the most beautiful rifles I've ever seen...re-chambered from 45/70 to 450 NE. Why you may ask? Well, I want higher performance but lower pressure. I also already have all the required paraphernalia to reload 450 NE. Not to mention a deep passion for British rifles and cartridges and I want something a little different. The 45/70 is almost pedestrian anymore.

The test ammo recipe consists of Hornady brass, 43.5gr of AAC-5744, Federal 215M primer, closed cell foam filler topped with an LBT 355gr spitzer gas check.

So here's a quick picture of the first five.

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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member

Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: AbitNutz]
#271688 - 14/10/15 10:29 PM

Hi AbitNutz,
They look great. I would say that you will be close to 450 Black Powder Express ballistics with that load. A full 450 Nitro load in that rifle would get your attention pretty smartly.
Keep us up with your results.
LesLeeSpeed

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
#273294 - 15/11/15 03:29 PM

What did you do about the thin rim recess of the 450 NE compared to the deeper recess of the 45-70? Are you using 45-120 brass and calling it a 450?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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AbitNutz
.275 member

Reged: 02/09/12
Posts: 58
Loc: Ohio, USA

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: AkMike]
#275983 - 02/01/16 08:35 PM

Not exactly sure what you mean. The 450 NE has a significantly larger diameter body at .540 where as the 45/70 family is .503. The rim diameter of the 450NE is .620 and the 45/70 is .610. The rim thickness of the 450NE is .040 and the 450NE is .070.

If you are referring to the difference in rim thickness, the 450NE having a thinner rim (.040) than the 45/70 (.070), there are two ways to go.

1) There is a thick rim version of 450NE brass available...now and then...which is .060 to .070, that would work.

2) Set the barrel back about 1 thread and then chamber it to the standard 450NE dimensions.

My gunsmith is setting the barrel back. 450NE brass is rare enough and expensive enough as it is without looking for an even rarer subset.

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Postman
.375 member

Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: AbitNutz]
#275988 - 02/01/16 11:47 PM

This is interesting to me. I have tried cast bullets in a .470NE, a .500NE, and two days ago in a .450NE. In all cases, the accuracy was dismal. I've tried wheel weights, cast as is and heat treated. Light loads, full power, and everything in between. Different cast styles and weights. In the .450 I used Lyman 405 grain cast and heat treated, lubed with Lyman lube, with 91 grains of H4350. The good news is that they didn't key hole but the "pattern" was 10" @ 50 yards. Using the same bullet in a .450 marlin, accuracy was excellent at around 2" or less @ 50 yards. I'm thinking that the deep Ballard rifling in the.450 Marlin was able to deeply engrave and stabilize the bullets whereas the very shallow rifling in the modern double rifles was relatively ineffective. I've all but given up using cast bullets in my double rifles at this point.

Edited by Postman (02/01/16 11:50 PM)

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: Postman]
#275991 - 03/01/16 02:03 AM

Postman, your load of 91gr H4350 in the 450NE is close to a full power jacketed bullet load.
You must be stripping your bullets or the base of your bullet is getting damaged enough to kill accuracy. I'm not sure that a gas checked bullet would even take that velocity.
Switch to H4198 and start with around 48gr of powder and a backer rod foam wad. I have found that H4198 works the best for me in NfB and practice loadings and using the backer rod as a filler couldn't be easier.
Also, a cast bullet with a smokeless load works best when it is sized a 'thou or two over groove so, just as you are thinking, the shallower rifling in modern rifles really is put to best effect.
Don't get discouraged with using cast bullets!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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AbitNutz
.275 member

Reged: 02/09/12
Posts: 58
Loc: Ohio, USA

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: Huvius]
#275993 - 03/01/16 02:52 AM

I really only shoot cast in my 450 Nitro Express, 450/400 Nitro Express. 45/70 and even my 375 H&H...using A5744 and a closed cell foam filler.

I water drop the bullets and they end up pretty hard...but even so, I stay away from large, slow powder that rattles around in the case.

Staying with this very general formula I've gotten pretty good results, not much if any barrel leading and more than acceptable accuracy.

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VonGruff
.400 member

Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.

Re: Pic of test ammo for 450 Nitro-Express project [Re: Huvius]
#276017 - 03/01/16 09:52 AM

Quote:

Postman, your load of 91gr H4350 in the 450NE is close to a full power jacketed bullet load.
You must be stripping your bullets or the base of your bullet is getting damaged enough to kill accuracy. I'm not sure that a gas checked bullet would even take that velocity.
Switch to H4198 and start with around 48gr of powder and a backer rod foam wad. I have found that H4198 works the best for me in NfB and practice loadings and using the backer rod as a filler couldn't be easier.
Also, a cast bullet with a smokeless load works best when it is sized a 'thou or two over groove so, just as you are thinking, the shallower rifling in modern rifles really is put to best effect.
Don't get discouraged with using cast bullets!

Just as an example of heavier loadings that work, I was loading 87gn H4350 (ADI 2209) under a 360gn cast bullet (weight depending on the alloy used) in my 404 Jeffery. It ran to 2416fps and shot into 1 1/4 at 55 yds with aperture sights. I designed the bullet to fit my barrel and it worked extremely well. 90/10 ww/lino alloy and heat treated with G C so a heavy load is more than possible if you get things right.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (03/01/16 09:53 AM)

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