Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
MS1910
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: India
404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co
      #270951 - 25/09/15 03:53 AM

Hey guys,

Been looking for a classic turn bolt rifle, preferably 404 jeff for some time now, and came across this rifle. I honestly dont know much about these and need your help. All I know that this is a military action rifle (possibly built by jeffery while Rigby had the exclusive rights to mauser actions).

I do understand that this will be project rifle, but the question is that is this particular one worth the effort? What I like about the gun is the fact that its a Jeffery in 404 jeffery.

The questions I have and dont have answers for are:

1. Is this a true Jeffery (the serial number on the barrel has one digit different from the one on the trigger gaurd)
2. Is this particular Jeffery desirable? considering the following:
a. its a military action
b. I remember reading something about the early rifles have a barrel dia different for modern loads? (need to find that thread again)

I would really appreciate your inputs.

Thanks
Saif

https://www.flickr.com/photos/saifattari/shares/4R8G19

PS: Cant figure out how to embed photos although had done it once before.. embarrassed!!

--------------------
Saif

Edited by MS1910 (25/09/15 04:06 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MS1910
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: India
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: MS1910]
      #270953 - 25/09/15 04:27 AM

Got the photo embedding sorted...







--------------------
Saif

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: MS1910]
      #270966 - 25/09/15 05:48 PM

Saif, I'm not a Jeffery expert but it looks like the real thing to me. I don't see any difference in the numbers, aren't they both 28598? Military action is no issue as the early Jefferys were built on military actions. If a military action is good enough for Harry Selby's .416 Rigby, it should be good enough for this rifle. All in all it looks to me like a pretty nice classic rifle. I'd suggest a good cleaning and nothing more so long as it shoots reasonably well.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: mckinney]
      #270968 - 25/09/15 08:04 PM

Another hint might be the internal magazine box.
Original Jeffery .404 rifles that we have seen here in Australia's Northern Territory have seriously cut-back mag boxes to allow closing the bolt over 3 rounds down. There may be no metal sides at all to the internal box, just timber.
Worth a look anyway....

And that extreme taper to the barrel half way down is quite characteristic of Jeffery .404 rifles in my limited experience, however British proof marks on the side of the Nock's Form will add weight to the assertion.

Nice rifle, providing the bore cleans up well enough to shoot. I too would be very happy to be planning a tidy-up of that marvelous old campaigner.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: Marrakai]
      #270973 - 25/09/15 10:23 PM

Yes, that is a genuine Jeffery.
Clean it up and see how the bore looks, just as said above.
There should be no issue at all using modern loaded 404 ammo in this rifle as the 404, even in modern commercial loading, isn't loaded very hot and if you reload, the original loads are quite nice to shoot and still capable of taking every game animal there is.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MS1910
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: India
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: Huvius]
      #271007 - 26/09/15 09:16 PM

Hey, Really appreciate the response. Its good to know that this rifle seems genuine. The last time I found a Mauser (i thought was a banner mauser) 275, turned out to be a complete fraud. Unfortunately, I had already bought that rifle before seeking help from this forum. A mistake I dont plan to make again:

@mckinney, the serial number on the barrel is 28598 and the one on the trigger guard is 28568.

@Marrakai, Will take another look at the rifle today and check for the magazine and for proof marks. Will post some more picture here following that.

@Huvius, I came across an article on http://www.allaboutguns.net/404_Jeffery.html and the following para threw me off a bit:

" A word of caution is in order for anyone interested in firing a rifle chambered for the .404 Jeffery. As stated in the A-Square reloading manual Any Shot You Want, the original drawings for the cartridge specify a groove diameter of .418”, a bullet diameter of .422” and a chamber that has an “abrupt, funnel shaped throat.” The later German drawings call for a groove diameter of .423”. Unless you are absolutely certain that the rifle you are using has a groove diameter of .423”, do not fire any .404 Jeffery ammunition in it until the bore and chamber have been measured. Modern rifles are quite strong but it is the older guns that are likely to have a barrel with a .418” groove diameter and they are not nearly as strong as the stuff produced today. It is suggested in Any Shot You Want that owners of older rifles with .418” barrels should hang them on the wall and admire them, which is sound advice indeed."

A bit of a background, I live in India and so does this rifle. The market for guns here is pretty crazy, too many restrictions etc so the same reflects in the prices as well. Anyway, the biggest concern is ammo... Its not available here and my only source would be import, 50 at a time in personal baggage. I want to be sure that I can fire new factory loads and possibly reload once I have cases..

Currently, I wont be able to accurately measure the dia, and the only way for now would be to accertain via the serial number if this is an older jeffery or the later one with the 423 dia..

saif

--------------------
Saif

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: MS1910]
      #271008 - 26/09/15 11:25 PM

Quote:

@Huvius, I came across an article on http://www.allaboutguns.net/404_Jeffery.html and the following para threw me off a bit:

" A word of caution is in order for anyone interested in firing a rifle chambered for the .404 Jeffery. As stated in the A-Square reloading manual Any Shot You Want, the original drawings for the cartridge specify a groove diameter of .418”, a bullet diameter of .422” and a chamber that has an “abrupt, funnel shaped throat.” The later German drawings call for a groove diameter of .423”. Unless you are absolutely certain that the rifle you are using has a groove diameter of .423”, do not fire any .404 Jeffery ammunition in it until the bore and chamber have been measured. Modern rifles are quite strong but it is the older guns that are likely to have a barrel with a .418” groove diameter and they are not nearly as strong as the stuff produced today. It is suggested in Any Shot You Want that owners of older rifles with .418” barrels should hang them on the wall and admire them, which is sound advice indeed."

A bit of a background, I live in India and so does this rifle. The market for guns here is pretty crazy, too many restrictions etc so the same reflects in the prices as well. Anyway, the biggest concern is ammo... Its not available here and my only source would be import, 50 at a time in personal baggage. I want to be sure that I can fire new factory loads and possibly reload once I have cases..

Currently, I wont be able to accurately measure the dia, and the only way for now would be to accertain via the serial number if this is an older jeffery or the later one with the 423 dia..

saif




Well, I don't know anybody using a 404, whether it be an old rifle or a new rifle, NOT using .423" bullets, myself included in a rifle close to the vintage of yours.
The 1920's barrel specs from Mauser call for a bore of .4114" and a groove of .4232" and I would doubt that Mauser would change what Jeffery was using (if Jeffery decided the dimensions anyway which is debatable).
I have never heard of any rifle calling for a jacketed bullet that is .005" LARGER than the groove dimension!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
458Win
.333 member


Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Alaska
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: Huvius]
      #271019 - 27/09/15 03:01 AM

The rifle looks genuine to me as well. It is similar to my 1907 version but there are minor differences in the early Jeffery 404's as Jeffery farmed out those rifles to various gun builders, giving them as many as 10 to do at a time.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
casper50
.400 member


Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1342
Loc: Alaska
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: 458Win]
      #271041 - 27/09/15 06:05 PM

I'm using .423 in my 1913 Mauser.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: casper50]
      #271053 - 28/09/15 01:04 AM

Quote:

I'm using .423 in my 1913 Mauser.







Awesome rifle and moose rack too boot..
thx

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: Ripp]
      #271064 - 28/09/15 04:09 AM

Good looking rifle with character and nice lines.

While we're talking about .404s, has anyone ever seen one of the Vickers rifles? I've seen them mentioned many times in a context that suggests they were utilitarian, no frills rifles but I can't find a single photo. Were they built on Mauser actions?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
458Win
.333 member


Reged: 15/12/06
Posts: 340
Loc: Alaska
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: mckinney]
      #271108 - 29/09/15 04:26 AM

Alaska seems to be crawling with old 404's !

Here is another photo of my Jeffery 404 that was delivered to it's owner in Jan of 1907 and used for an Alaskan brown bear hunt. A task for which it is still perfect.



--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: 458Win]
      #271111 - 29/09/15 04:53 AM

Phil It's great to see a grand old rifle still at work. She has a good home.


mck I believe I saw one of the Vickers .404s at Tulsa a few years ago (if I remember correctly).

It was a mud plain rifle built on a P-14 action. But having said that, I do believe it is the nicest

handling heavy I have ever picked up. The rifle just jumped to my shoulder, and the bead was right in

the bottom of the vee. It was alive. The ones that do that are few and far between.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: MikeRowe]
      #271112 - 29/09/15 05:01 AM

Still wearing those funny shoes with the toes and claws, just to excite the clients? LOL

Nice rifle, properly sighted as well and perfectly 'FRAMED".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: 458Win]
      #271119 - 29/09/15 06:05 AM

Apologies to the OP & I sure would like to have a walk around in a few places in India with his up coming Jeffery 404 ,

But those 404's in Alaska are really cool, huge Moose & fantastic back ground & rifle of Phil's, thanks for that !

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MS1910
.224 member


Reged: 03/09/12
Posts: 8
Loc: India
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: Marrakai]
      #271126 - 29/09/15 09:05 PM

Quote:

Another hint might be the internal magazine box.
Original Jeffery .404 rifles that we have seen here in Australia's Northern Territory have seriously cut-back mag boxes to allow closing the bolt over 3 rounds down. There may be no metal sides at all to the internal box, just timber.
Worth a look anyway....

And that extreme taper to the barrel half way down is quite characteristic of Jeffery .404 rifles in my limited experience, however British proof marks on the side of the Nock's Form will add weight to the assertion.

Nice rifle, providing the bore cleans up well enough to shoot. I too would be very happy to be planning a tidy-up of that marvelous old campaigner.



A quick update:
The magazine plate was jammed, and I was running out of time so just peeped in to see that this particular rifle had metal sides.

Also noticed some considerable pitting on the chamber body (towards where the cartridge head would be), I have a feeling it could negatively impact extraction.

Anyway, made an offer to the owner and lets see if he agrees. Will keep this thread updated.

Thanks a million to everyone
Saif

--------------------
Saif

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: MS1910]
      #271183 - 01/10/15 11:33 AM

G'Day Fella's,

FYI, I've only just worked out how to post things from my Face Book (FB) page.
Here (I hope) is an image or two, of my FN based and a New W.J.Jeffery both in .404 Jeffery.

https://www.facebook.com/john.bladen.39/photos

I just realised, if you are interested, you can click on the above images, and then view other images of this rifle etc from FB.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Edited by Homer (02/10/15 09:52 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: MikeRowe]
      #271235 - 02/10/15 05:25 PM

Mike, very true what you say about certain firearms feeling 'alive' and how hard it is to find one. I have many firearms (too many probably) but only a few that feel alive to me - one or two GH springfields, a few Mauser Type A's and prewar .22s and a Remington Model 30. Same with handguns - I have a fair sampling of the good stuff, but the best feeling to me is a plain jane Colt official police .38. It's a very interesting subject.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1123
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: 404 Jeff by W.J Jeffery & Co [Re: mckinney]
      #271258 - 03/10/15 06:36 AM

Many moons ago just after I acquired my 404 I corresponded with an old guy who also had a 404. I can't remember all the details of the rifle now but I recall when I offered him some of the RWS 400gr solid bullets I had just imported he turned them down saying he did not like shooting jacketed in his 404 as it had a bore/bullet size of .418". I don't know the history of what he shot in his rifle other than i think he did cast for it and recall I sent him a few of my cast projectiles to try in his gun. He passed away shortly after I had last corresponded and who knows what happened to his 404 rifle.

From what I have seen in sectionalising one of my RWS bullets and from what others have said about the original Kynoch bullets, the side walls on these early projectiles were always quite thin with the idea they would swage down easily to accommodate a range of bore sizes.

Pondoro Taylor wrote about the 404 Jeffery in his "African Rifles and Cartridges" book and relates the experience of an old German hunter he knew who had problems with both German and British ammo where the bullets often broke up. Taylor himself did not experience this problem when using the 404 nor to his knowledge did any others and as he said the cartridge would not have become such a workhorse in Africa had the .423" bullets consistently misbehaved as the German hunter experienced.

I myself have always wondered if that German hunter just happened to have a rifle with .418" or smaller bore which caused the thin sidewall jackets of .423" bullets of the day to be severely swaged and likely even the jackets cut when fired thereby initiating bullet break up. This could be a logical explanation for an unusual phenomenon where ammo from different manufacturers habitually failed when used in one particular gun.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 60 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 7911

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved