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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive
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Roy
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Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..!
      #270760 - 21/09/15 04:05 AM

Greetings Chaps,

After the warm reception which I am most appreciative of, I thought I would share a special rifle with you. I'm afraid I'm not too keen on the whole photo hosting thing, so instead just created a private page on my own website to share with you all and will add a link below.

The Rifle..? Well this is a B.S.A. Lee-Speed (not marked as such) pattern of rifle - a No4 in .303. This one is especially interesting as it was one of only 970 rifles that were purchased by the Admiralty in March of 1915 for use on small craft. Apparently due to a shortage of arms at the outbreak of WWI many rifles were removed from RN ships and re-distributed (presumably to the Army). As an interim measure the Admiralty embarked on purchasing all manner of rifles to fill the gap. This included amongst others 970 commercial pattern BSA/LSA rifles. This fine example is one of those and carries the Broad Arrow and 'N' (for Navy) inspection mark.

Link: http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/BSA_Lee_Speed.html

I'm yet to shoot this example but plan to soon.

Hope you enjoy, Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

Edited by Roy (21/09/15 06:04 AM)

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Iowa_303s
.400 member


Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270773 - 21/09/15 07:43 AM

Thanks for the photos Roy.
I have a BSA commercial No. 1 Mk III barreled action made between mid 1931 - mid 1932 that I intend to make into a Lee-Speed(ish) sporting rifle.
Your rifle looks just like the picture I have in my head.
Thanks again,

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #270775 - 21/09/15 07:57 AM

HI Matt,

Thanks for that, I'm pretty chuffed with this one, something a little unusual.

Look forward to seeing your project, sounds worth while.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270780 - 21/09/15 11:41 AM

Its going to be a winter project. Maybe even this winter!

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Viking338
.333 member


Reged: 11/08/11
Posts: 480
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #270784 - 21/09/15 04:09 PM

That is beautiful, thank you it made my day to see it

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Viking338]
      #270825 - 22/09/15 01:15 PM

Hi Vicking338,

Thank you indeed for that. I picked up some .303 ammo today, so a range trip is imminent..!

Matt - good luck with that, let me know if you need any images for 'inspiration' or to assist with your project. Let us know how you get on?

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Iowa_303s
.400 member


Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270826 - 22/09/15 02:10 PM

Roy,
Thanks for the offer of assistance.
At your convenience, a photo from the front and side of the front sight would be great.
Thanks again.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #270863 - 23/09/15 05:18 AM

Hi Matt,

Yes, more than happy to help. If you check the link again (see below) I have loaded up a few photos showing the foresight and the 'Cole's Steadfast Foresight Protecter'. Email me know if you want the full size images and/or more details.

It's a clever little gadget and this one still works.

Cheers, Roy.

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/BSA_Lee_Speed.html

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270883 - 23/09/15 08:26 AM

Hi Roy

Excellent rifle in superb condition
Is it converted from the Naval rifle? or is it a possibility that it was bought in as a sporter, although such guns/rifles were usually issued to Armed Merchant Ships?

The No. 4 SC is not the rifle number/type but possibly a unit/ship number??

If it is military issue it is a SMLE Mark 1*** (introduced in 1914) which differs from the SMLE Mark 1 in not having the charger loading bridge introduced in other SMLE variants in 1907
This variant was only issued I believe to the Royal Navy
The magazine cut off was kept until January 1916 when it was removed as a wartime expedient along with the long range dial sights and windgage

The Lee Enfield No 4 rifle (not a SMLE) was finally introduced after 15 years messing about in 1939

You have a unique and rare rifle, good luck shooting it

Tony

Edited by TH44 (23/09/15 08:32 AM)

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Iowa_303s
.400 member


Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: TH44]
      #270885 - 23/09/15 08:44 AM

Thank you Roy, thats exactly what I wanted to see.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: TH44]
      #270888 - 23/09/15 08:59 AM

Hello Tony,

Thank you for your interest and kind words. I will try to answer some of your questions.

Firstly 'no' this is not a converted rifle but is completely original and as it came from BSA as a newly built rifle. In the 'BSA Rifles & Rifle Sights' catalogue of 1910-12 it is shown on page 17. It's official designation is 'Lee-Enfield Magazine Carbine - No4 Sporting Carbine' this explains the markings on the left which are 'No4 S.C.' (S.C. for Sporting Carbine). The 'No4 should not be confused with the later Lee Enfield model but is reference to the sporting rifles (aka Lee Speeds) BSA were producing at the time 1 - 4 being of difference grades No1 being the finest.

This (along with other patterns) was essentially a commercial sporting rifle marketed to officers/hunters. It's most significant difference from the No1, 2 & 3 was the use of the standard Lee Enfield shaped stock (the first three having a sporting pistol-grip type stock).

As mentioned earlier and from what I have been able to piece together, this was one of 970 such rifles purchase by the Admiralty (along with many others) for issue on trawlers/small craft etc. So in essence you have an interesting situation, in that the design being based on the military Lee Metford was used by BSA to produce a civilian/commercial sporting rifle but later a number of these 'civilian/commercial' patterns were (as is the case with this one) purchased by the military (Admiralty) for issue. So in some respects a 'full circle' moment...!

A great rifle and fascinating piece of history.

I hope that makes sense Tony?

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270889 - 23/09/15 09:00 AM

Roger that Matt,

Happy to help.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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TH44
.375 member


Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270914 - 24/09/15 08:49 AM

Hi Roy
Many thanks for your response, if I was not tired last night I would have remembered to ask if it had English Proof Marks which a Commercial rifle would have

The arming of "Armed Trawlers" is interesting, they would use .303s
There are many on a trawler wreck just off here in Plymouth

I am also interested in the arming of merchant ships in WW1, with older guns from 3 pounders to 4.7 inch
As I diver I have dived on many WW1 wrecks in the English Channel and recovered (legally!) shell cases and small arms ammo.
Most was .303 but often other, 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher and unusually, 44/40 Winchester

Early in WW1 many American shooters gave pistols and rifles to the British War Effort (thanks guys, we were short as usual)
Some of these were given to the IIRC Home Defence Force? predecessors of the WW2 Home Guard
But I believe some were issued to these armed ships as it would save the.303s for more regular units
Ammunition could be sourced from Eley etc.

Anyway, I digress and ramble on...............

Good shooting

Tony

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: TH44]
      #270915 - 24/09/15 11:37 AM

Hi Tony,

A fascinating topic the arming of merchant ships etc, not something I had even given much though to before I found this rifle. From the scan information I have heard all sorts of rifles were procured for this purpose, so the variety of ammunition you have found would certainly make sense.

As to 'rambling' isn't that what we do on these forums....!

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #270956 - 25/09/15 05:47 AM

Hi Gents,

Well as promised I took this old girl to the range and wanted to let you all know how I got on.

Shooting this vintage .303 took me right back to my teens in the ACF. The distinct and formidable 'boom' of the .303 brought back many good memories and I can't wait for my next outing.

The rifle ran flawlessly, a real joy to shoot. The action was smooth and positive and as good as the day it was made a century ago. The single stage trigger was a little heavy but also positive and crisp, so with a little time to acclimate I had no problem.

As one would expect my local gun shops were not brimming with .303 but I was able to find a few boxes and two type; The first was Sellier & Bellot Soft Point 9.7g 150 grs, the other was PPU FMJ 11.3g 174 grs. The latter was terrible, the rifle didn't like it at all and it seemed like every shot was a flyer. However the Sellier & Bellot was a totally different story as it was accurate and consistent and I was thrilled to put up a five shot fifty yard group in less than one inch and I'm only an average shot!

I loved shooting this rifle and will certainly plan to take the old girl out again before too long.

See link below for a few photos from this mornings range trip.

Cheers, Roy.

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/BSA_Lee_Speed_Range.html

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

Edited by Roy (25/09/15 06:02 AM)

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AlanD
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Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #273291 - 15/11/15 02:49 PM

Hi Roy

Was this the same rifle that Joe Salter had for sale on his site recently?

There is another rifle with the same markings here in Australia - not mine unfortunately.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: AlanD]
      #273317 - 16/11/15 02:54 AM

Hi AlanD,

Yes mate that's the one. I was luck to spot it on Joe's website very shortly after being listed, so couldn't grab it quick enough. I must be honest I had never seen one of these before but along with the condition and the fact that it could straddle a couple of passions - namely commercial BSA rifles and my interest in military history, I was a no brainer as they say.

I have hear that there is one or two more of these out there but never seen any, so if you get the opportunity to photograph the example you mention I would love to see another example?

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #273327 - 16/11/15 06:28 AM

Hi Roy did you pull her off the site mate, cant see it there ?

Nice work on your site to !

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Sarg]
      #273329 - 16/11/15 07:22 AM

Hi Sarg,

Sorry about that, I think I created or combined a new link. I will add it below:

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/BSA_Lee_Speed_No4_%28N%29.html

Thanks also for your kind words on my website efforts. Now I have a few models I'm actually working on a bit more of a formal page to share a general overview and then more specific details about each rifle as time allows. When I've sorted something half decent out I will give everyone a heads up.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Bidgee
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Reged: 08/04/15
Posts: 711
Loc: Northern Rivers, NSW
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #273334 - 16/11/15 08:55 AM

Hi Roy,

That is a unique rifle! I would be happy to store it in my safe for you

It is quite an accurate shooter as well. What is the barrel length on it?

+1 with the website.

Cheers

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Bidgee]
      #273341 - 16/11/15 11:15 AM

Thanks for that old chap.

It certainly is a cracking rifle, cost me an arm and a leg but sometime one just has to throw caution to the wind and worry about the money later.

The barrel is 24½".

A contact of mine just found me an early leather (pre 1916) SMLE military sling too. I wanted one of this scarce pattern as I thought it would be a nice addition for this 'military' rifle. In with the deal I also got an early commercial leather sling too which will fit nice on one of the other rifles.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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Old_Glass
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Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #273342 - 16/11/15 11:36 AM

That is in lovely condition. I like the sleek lines of the early models without the charger guide, but they should have had 10 round mags or else a Harris Lever IMHO. I suppose the higher end models got the heavier barrels.

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Bidgee
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Reged: 08/04/15
Posts: 711
Loc: Northern Rivers, NSW
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Old_Glass]
      #273345 - 16/11/15 12:05 PM

Here is a page from A BSA catalogue showing carbines from No1 to No4.

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Bidgee]
      #273346 - 16/11/15 12:14 PM

Thanks Old Glass,

This rifle did come with a ten round magazine and I believe it to be original. It would seem logical (to me) that when these were ordered by the Admiralty a ten round mag would have been requested and of course preferable.

Thanks for sharing that Bidgee, a great image and a nice view of this pattern of rifle. While on the topic of early B.S.A. catalogues - if anyone has any originals they want to sell drop me a line. I have one original example but would like more.

All the best, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: B.S.A. Commercial Royal Navy Purchase Rifle..! [Re: Roy]
      #273348 - 16/11/15 12:20 PM

Roy- if you can find them, Winchester loads a 180gr. Power Point semi-round nose (semi spitzer) in .303. They are an excellent moose and elk round.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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