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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive
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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla
what constitutes a lee speed?
      #270485 - 15/09/15 04:36 AM

Was in a local gun shop digging through the sale rack and found a no.3 mk1 California style stock deep blues no cutout or stripper guide.in 303 marked griffin and Howe on the barrel with British proof marks on the barrel.$ 495 good deal?

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rglenz
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Reged: 14/03/08
Posts: 134
Loc: w. Minn
Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: ducmarc]
      #270486 - 15/09/15 05:22 AM

I have never seen a California type stock by G&H. Buyer beware!

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Roy
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Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: rglenz]
      #270492 - 15/09/15 05:52 AM

Hi Chaps,

I'm certainly no expert but from examples I have observed I would say that a 'Lee-Speed' rifle is one that was a commercial (or sporting) version of the original military rifle and manufactured/offered by one of the original makers (i.e. BSA/LSA). Such rifles are occasionally 'not' marked 'Lee-Speed' but would be represented in their catalogues.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

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simonsaorsa
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Reged: 11/05/06
Posts: 172
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: Roy]
      #270503 - 15/09/15 07:04 AM

check out this link for some information on who Mr Speed was and why the rifles were so marked

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Lee-Speed.htm

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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: simonsaorsa]
      #270508 - 15/09/15 11:00 AM

Ok I'm the dummy don't know where the griffin and how came form but went back its a parker hale which makes more sense looks like a 70s sporter or someone restocked with a fajen .may bite o it since chopped up no.3 runs around 250 the stocks a hundred plus.i figured they will come of it a bit.and it is nicely done.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: ducmarc]
      #270509 - 15/09/15 11:06 AM

Reading the article it seems they are all lee speeds but the original is the army navy ones.thanks for the link.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Claydog
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: ducmarc]
      #270511 - 15/09/15 12:00 PM

Bit of a contentious issue what constitutes a Lee Speed and what doesn't. Many consider only the ones stamped Lee Speed Patent to be Lee Speeds where others argue that the ones after the patent expired are still Lee Speeds, the only difference being they were made after the patent expired so don't carry the stamping. Army Navy was only one retailer among many, most British gunmakers of the time offered them and not all were made by BSA. I can see both sides of the argument but there is no argument that those carrying the patent stamps are Lee Speeds. Someone else can argue about the rest.

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eagle27
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: ducmarc]
      #270517 - 15/09/15 04:33 PM

Quote:

Ok I'm the dummy don't know where the griffin and how came form but went back its a parker hale which makes more sense looks like a 70s sporter or someone restocked with a fajen .may bite o it since chopped up no.3 runs around 250 the stocks a hundred plus.i figured they will come of it a bit.and it is nicely done.



Parker Hale produced sporterised versions of the SMLE No 4 back in the 60's and early 70's. There were four grades, the Standard, Deluxe, Supreme and Custom, the latter not seen much.

They were very popular here in NZ where most of us hunters back then cut our teeth on the SMLE and the Supreme was quite a nice sporter at a good price in the day, certainly a step up from the old hacked about ex military 303's that had been the order of the day.

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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: eagle27]
      #270559 - 16/09/15 11:44 AM

Looked at it again it has a shrouded front sight marked parker hale an ultra cheap rear sight no windage just an wedge for elevation which is also marked drilled for scope but banked off. Polished. Bolt nice bore stock has been sanded with thin somewhat crude checkering.looks somewhat psychedelic late sixtys look.i look at all my guns as long term investments and as hunting and shooting toys any one have a an idea of a value. Thanks

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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DoubleD
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: Claydog]
      #270635 - 18/09/15 01:02 AM

Quote:

Bit of a contentious issue what constitutes a Lee Speed and what doesn't. Many consider only the ones stamped Lee Speed Patent to be Lee Speeds where others argue that the ones after the patent expired are still Lee Speeds, the only difference being they were made after the patent expired so don't carry the stamping. Army Navy was only one retailer among many, most British gunmakers of the time offered them and not all were made by BSA. I can see both sides of the argument but there is no argument that those carrying the patent stamps are Lee Speeds. Someone else can argue about the rest.



Yes contentious.

Would a Western Field 30-06 so marked and made on a pre 64 Mod 70 Winchester action be a "Pre 64, Winchester"? Would a KDF K-14 so marked and made on Remington 700 be Remington?

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DD, Ret.

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TH44
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: DoubleD]
      #270645 - 18/09/15 08:18 AM

Simonsaorosa's link is good, I have previously used it in research

My belief as that the commercial versions built by BSA using Lee's and Speed's patents had to state so they were referred to as Lee Speeds

All (I believe) were on a Long Lee Enfield Action (internally different from SMLEs), mostly with the longer barrel

All major makers bought these in from BSA with slight variations (My own Westley Richards has a full length broad rib and later safety)

Later Sporterised SMLEs whilst equally attractive and effectve are not strictly speaking Lee Speeds

TH44

Edited by TH44 (18/09/15 08:20 AM)

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Tom_H
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: TH44]
      #270646 - 18/09/15 08:23 AM

Is it just me or does that tang safety work by pulling back rather than pushing forward?
Couldn't figure out how that worked although I do have a German stalking rifle that has a pull safety as well.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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TH44
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: Tom_H]
      #270673 - 19/09/15 04:38 AM

Tom - Yes it does, it threw me completely the first time I used it!

I cannot imagine why, unless it was the only way it could be designed for the Long Lee Enfield action

Tony

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: TH44]
      #270706 - 19/09/15 04:45 PM

From that UK Rifleman webpage:
Quote:

Those rifles built by various manufacturers for commercial sale were thus marked " LEE-SPEED PATENTS" until such time as the patents expired or were superseded.



...and also Clayton mentions this, but does anyone actually know when the Lee Speed Patents did expire?

If it was not prior to the start of the Kaiser's War, then I would respectfully suggest its a moot point anyway.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Roy
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Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: what constitutes a lee speed? [Re: Marrakai]
      #270718 - 20/09/15 03:34 AM

Hi Gents,

TH44 certainly makes some good points and I would not disagree.

I think it is also important to remember that the moniker 'Lee-Speed' was also never an official name (that I know of) and has been a 'term' that collectors/shooters like us use - and why not. However in the BSA catalogues of the period these rifles are referred to as "Sporting Rifles", "Sporting Carbines" or "Magazine Carbines". Personally I like the name 'Lee-Speed' as a general term to cover 'all' of these BSA/LSA sporting rifles (based on the Lee-Metford/Speed patents) as long as they fit the description put forward by TH44 - whether or not they actually have the patent details stamped on the rifle or not.

For example I have a splendid No4 'sporting carbine' that is clearly a 'Lee-Speed' in every way but is not marked as such and interestingly was one of 970 commercial rifles purchased by the Admiralty in March 1915 and is thus marked with the appropriate Broad Arrow & N.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html

Edited by Roy (20/09/15 03:50 AM)

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