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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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Homer
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Loc: Canberra, Australia
Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is?
      #269335 - 17/08/15 03:20 PM

G'Day Fella's,

As above, I just picked up 4 x 10Kgs bags of new #7 1/2 shotgun shot, at scrap metal prices!
From what I was told, it should be a Lead-Antimony only alloy?
Once I get a chance to melt some and hardness test it, I will let you know but any ideas about hardness etc, in the mean time?

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Edited by Homer (17/08/15 06:06 PM)

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eagle27
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: Homer]
      #269337 - 17/08/15 04:34 PM

I melted down some Winchester hard #7 shot that I no longer needed to reload 12G. Without having a hardness tester it seems quite hard and the ingots I made have a 'ring' to them rather than a leaden thud. Not very scientific but there it is for what it's worth. From research I did before melting down the lead shot it seems lead shot is around 97% lead and 3% antimony with no tin.

One thing I will say is that the shot lead doesn't seem to cast as well as my usual Lyman #2 mix. I notice it is hard to get consistent filling of the mould and I did read somewhere that it is tin that is needed in a casting mix to achieve good mould fill out.

When making up Lyman #2 alloy I usually use wheelweights, pure lead, and 50/50 lead/tin solder, which in the right proportions gives me a mix of 90% lead, 5% antimony and 5% tin with which I have had great casting success. I intend remixing my shot lead ingots and adding in some 50/50 solder or pure tin if I can get some to try and get a better casting alloy.

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Homer
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: eagle27]
      #269339 - 17/08/15 06:30 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Eagle 27, Thank You for your insight into Shotgun Shot make up, very much appreciated!

FYI, in the past I was able to buy sticks of pure Tin.
To look at, they were like sticks of 50/50 Solder but pure Tin!

Now I'm not sure and a person will need to confirm this with a Chemist/Pharmacist but you know the tubes of ointment you can buy, I'm not sure if they are made of Tin of Zinc?
Unfortunately, so many of these ointment tubes are made of some kind of Plastic these days but the metal ones are still regularly used. Just need to confirm the metal!

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: Homer]
      #269355 - 18/08/15 01:53 AM

Shot contains a smidgeon/trace of arsenic. Arsenic is needed for hardening the castings. WW also contain the requisite arsenic for further hardening if desired.

When casting without tin (tin does not contribute to the hardening process, such as antimony and arsenic does), the temperature of the melt and mould must be higher when casting. I like an even 'frosting' of the cast bullets, which has worked well for me since the 70's.

A bullet of simple lead and tin mix cannot be hardened.

If dropped into water from the mould( NEVER allow water to splash into the melt) bullets cast from straight WW allo (not zinc WW) will attain hardness from about Brinel 25 to 32. Good clean, new Linotype metal is brinel 22. Old oft used Linotype is said to be from 20 to 21 brinel. Linotype is quite brittle, but hardened WW alloys are not.


Shot may contain up to 5% antimony - apparently, but 3% is most common for "hard shot".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: DarylS]
      #269356 - 18/08/15 02:00 AM

I have not tested Shot for hardness, but assume it will give readings of about Brinel 7 to 8. WW (non zinc) alloys run from 10 Brinel to 13, I've read. The Canadian WW from the 70's were of the harder variety - Brinel 13.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: DarylS]
      #269367 - 18/08/15 09:11 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thank You for that info Daryl, very much appreciated!
Especially for that info on Arsenic and the reason for it's use!!!

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: Homer]
      #269370 - 18/08/15 11:14 AM

Without the trace of arsenic, the lead will not harden when quenched.

Adding shot (which contains arsenic) to a favourite alloy mix of lead, antimony and tin 9rthat does not contain arsenic), will allow the mix to be hardened. It only takes a small amount of shot, say 1 pound in 10, or maybe even 20. You would have to experiment to find out precisely how much us needed.

Adjusting your ("wife's") oven temperature to just below the 'slump' temperature, then 'soaking' the bullets at that level (usually somewhere between 400F and 500F on the dial) for 1 1/2 hours, then dropping them into a bucket of cold water, will achieve the required hardening of the alloy.

This hardening is not immediate as when hardening steel.

The bullet's drop and bumping into each other should be cushioned on the bottom of the bucket with a folded towel.

The quenched bullets can then immediately be dried, sized and lubed. If left for 12 hours or more before sizing and lubricating, the bullets will re-softened by this 'work'.

If sized and lubed immediately after been dropped, they will attain the hardness dictated by the alloy and their temperature when quenched, in the 12 to 14 hour period.

Lead bullets, especially WW alloy which contains the requisite arsenic, may attain hardness up to brinel 32. Dead soft copper is 34 on the brinel scale IIRC.

Ross Seyfried used just such hardened WW bullets for a cape buffalo bull shot with his .50 Linebeau revolver. IIRC, it was a 440gr. bullet at some 1,450fps. Or perhaps a .45 with 340gr. at a similar velocity. Complete penetration, no bullet upset, just like a 'proper' jacketed solid.

Linotype is not suitable for hunting big OR dangerous game due to the brittle nature of that alloy - they break up on bones and even tissue if HP in design. Hardened bullets do not do this.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: DarylS]
      #269372 - 18/08/15 11:23 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thank you for that additional info Daryl, you are The Best!

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: Homer]
      #269386 - 18/08/15 10:58 PM

Pleasure, Homer.

I've driven normal 269gr. Lyman mould cast .375's, hardened (oven then dropped into cold tap water in a bucket), sized then lubed and gas checked at 2,800fps with 1 1/2 MOA accuracy and no leading. The rifle was my 1972 .375H&H BRNO ZKK602. I used LBT Blue lube. (via Veral Smith's little book, "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets")

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Homer
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: DarylS]
      #269404 - 19/08/15 09:47 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Daryl, thats bloody impressive performance, from a great (and very underrated) rifle!

FYI, the scrap metal place I bought this Lead shot from, has another 20 Kg's of # 7 1/2 shot there still!
I might go get it as well!

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: Homer]
      #269430 - 19/08/15 11:10 PM

I once bought all the lead shielding out of a doctor's office that was being converted to an apartment building. The whole X-Ray room had been lined with the stuff and it had only been in there about a year. I gave 10 cents a pound for the stuff back when lead was selling for 50 to 60 cents a pound. The guy who sold it to me estimated that there was 500 pounds of it, and so that's what I paid him for. When I weighed it out there was around 800 pounds of it, you do the math.
I have to add shot and/or tin to it to harden it up some because it was dead soft lead sheeting, just what I wanted for my muzzleloaders. I am not as precise as Daryl, I just throw in a small handful of reclaimed shot to every 10 pound batch of melted lead, it seems to work for me. And yes, they will harden up, especially if dropped right into a bucket of cold water. I use a plastic bucket and have had no problems with one dropped bullet damaging any of the others. I roll them in Alox and let them dry overnight.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #269432 - 20/08/15 12:45 AM

X-ray wall lead is the softest lead I had ever seen.
As that price - WOW!

I didn't have trouble with damaged bullets either when first starting with the bullet drop - however I still add the towel as some of the bullets have plain bases and I want no nicks or depressions.

Note, it is a good idea to have a slit towel across the top of the water container if water dropping. Dropping through the slit, is a definite safety strip to avoid splashes around your lead pot. You do NOT want a splash to enter your lead pot. It will empty all over you. To be effective, the water bucket must be close to the lead pot so the bullet can be dropped as soon as it hardens. This heightens the possibility of splashes.

I also once had a large moth fly into my 20 pound lead pot as I was casting - No idea why it did that - I was wearing glasses which were destroyed & the grey polar fleece jacket had to be thrown away - the jacket had a quantity of lead melted into the fabric on the chest and arms. I was lucky not to get very much on my face & have no scarring today.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (20/08/15 12:09 PM)

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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Any idea how Soft/Hard shotgun shot is? [Re: DarylS]
      #269447 - 20/08/15 09:18 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Bird Hunter 50, interesting info and thank you for sharing!

Yes Daryl, we are playing with "Fire", so all forms of safety and safety equipment, need to be utilised!
I wear my leather fronted welding coat, leather welding gloves and a clear face shield, whilst casting (outside but undercover)!!!

Regards
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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