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Flintfan
.224 member


Reged: 07/08/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Minnesota
360 black powder express twist rate
      #269118 - 11/08/15 04:15 AM

Greetings. I'm new to this forum and am hoping someone on here might be able to help me out with some information. I recently acquired a H&H 360 miniature express rifle, which was made in 1877. It is a project gun due to the fact that at some point in the the rifle's life someone took a square end reamer and lengthened the chamber by roughly 1/2". I can only guess as to why someone might have done that, but I would say that someone did it in the attempt to chamber more common 9.3x74 ammo. Regardless, I would like to bring this back to original chamber specs, which I think my only option is to do a full barrel reline (other opinions welcome on that point).

I know I can get a 9.3mm (.366 groove dia.) liner made. My question to others on this forum is what would be a good twist rate. I measured the twist in my rifle, and was surprised to find it measured 1-46, which was much slower than I was expecting to find. On another forum an owner of a German rifle in 9.3mm-57R relayed that his twist rate was 1-15, and was very accurate with a 200 gr bullet. I am hoping others on this forum might have British made 360 BPE rifles and could tell me what their twist rates are. It seems to me a faster twist rate would be more versatile with the 190-210 gr bullets that this cartridge was also loaded with. Since the originality of this rifle has already been compromised with the messed with chamber, having the barrel relined with a more optimum twist rate won't keep me up at night. I look forward to your suggestions

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rigbymauser
.400 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: Flintfan]
      #269119 - 11/08/15 04:54 AM

I can´t give you an advise on this one....however welcome onboard!!. I am sure there is one ot two members who can help out.

The H&H .360 2,25" Express
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/360-2-%C2%BC-nitro-black-powder

The .360 2,75" Express
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/400360-nitro-express-2-%C2%BE

It sound like some may have tried to use the .360 2,75" case?.

What does the rimdiameter on the extrators measure?...



BTW...Have you slugged the bore?. Done a chamber cast?. That might help to get facts in order to establish a further what-to-do-or-how-to-do?.

Pictures!!. You most know EVERYBODY in here loves to watch Pictures. If they don´t like to Watch nice chicks in light summer uniform they definatly love to watch vintage double rifles.





J.

Edited by rigbymauser (11/08/15 05:10 AM)

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: rigbymauser]
      #269123 - 11/08/15 06:02 AM

First, welcome to Nitro Express!

I am in a similar situation with my little Greener 310 double except mine needs a reline due to crummy bores.
I would say, pick a twist rate which will work with the bullet you expect to use most often. That is, if you have a choice of twist rates with your liner supplier (let us know if you do btw).
That way, you are set to use it as you would like.

Now, the one thing keeping me from relining my little double is that I am unsure of how well regulation will remain and whether a lined double can be re-regulated with lined barrels. I haven't seen an article on this subject so cannot be confident that it works that well.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Flintfan
.224 member


Reged: 07/08/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Minnesota
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: rigbymauser]
      #269124 - 11/08/15 06:39 AM

Quote:

I can´t give you an advise on this one....however welcome onboard!!. I am sure there is one ot two members who can help out.

The H&H .360 2,25" Express
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/360-2-%C2%BC-nitro-black-powder

The .360 2,75" Express
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/400360-nitro-express-2-%C2%BE

It sound like some may have tried to use the .360 2,75" case?.

What does the rimdiameter on the extrators measure?...



BTW...Have you slugged the bore?. Done a chamber cast?. That might help to get facts in order to establish a further what-to-do-or-how-to-do?.

Pictures!!. You most know EVERYBODY in here loves to watch Pictures. If they don´t like to Watch nice chicks in light summer uniform they definatly love to watch vintage double rifles.





J.




Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have taken a chamber casting



You can see the section that was reamed in front of the original chamber, leaving a sharp shoulder leading into the rifling.

The cartridge rim dia on the extractors measures .496

The groove dia in front of the chamber is .372. I need to slug the muzzle at some point to see if there is any taper in the bore.

I'll try to take some pics of the rifle itself and post them at some point.

Edited by CptCurl (11/08/15 09:03 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: Flintfan]
      #269131 - 11/08/15 09:37 AM

I would use a 12" to 14" twist for bullets in the 250gr. range. either would do, however the 12" might be best as it will also handle longer bullets if you so desire.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1465
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: DarylS]
      #269136 - 11/08/15 01:06 PM

Hello FlintFan & welcome aboard.

As to your H&H .360 Express: you say it was made in 1877 so originally for black powder loads (20 years before cordite) of about 50 grains and a 150-215 grain lead (likely paper patched) bullet. Unless later reproved for something else you need to be using great care so as not to wreck a fine old rifle.
A picture of the barrel flats with proof marks would help.
Possibly was lengthened to .360 no.2 (thats a 3" case) but who is to say it was ever re-proofed & re-regulated for that loading? You will have to closely examine any proof marks on the barrel flats.
Could certainly be an adaptation of 9.3x74R as well. Only way to tell for sure is close measurements of that chamber cast.
The original H&H .360BP Ex was loaded to 10 tons....the .360 No.2 @ 14.5 tons, and 9.3x74 as well, would be very close to proof loads for the original H&H .360 Miniature Express if that is in fact what it originally was.

If it were mine? I might examine the possibility of having a proper leade reamed in the throat and leave it at that. Find a suitable parent case to form cases, then unless proof marks say otherwise, proceed with black powder or NfB loads and 190-200 grain PP lead bullet cast from 1-40 or 1-30 so the bullet would bump up to take the .372" rifling.
Good luck......
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: 3DogMike]
      #269138 - 11/08/15 02:44 PM

Definitely not a 360No.2 and from the looks of the chamber cast, not really rechambered to anything except that the throat has been reamed out cylindrically, which , of course, Flintfan had mentioned in the original post.
Seeing that now, I would try smoothing out the fore edge of the chamber lead and see what kind of accuracy you end up with. The rifling looks quite good downstream from the chamber.

I wonder if a previous owner experienced some slight ringing in the chambers and had them reamed out to clean them up(?)

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: Huvius]
      #269147 - 11/08/15 09:16 PM

Flintfan,

Welcome to the party!

I have a .360 Miniature built by Rigby in 1880. If I can find the time, I'll dig it out and measure its twist.

We would love to see photos of your rifle. You can see mine here: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....0&fpart=all

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Flintfan
.224 member


Reged: 07/08/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Minnesota
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: Huvius]
      #269149 - 11/08/15 09:21 PM

Quote:

Definitely not a 360No.2 and from the looks of the chamber cast, not really rechambered to anything except that the throat has been reamed out cylindrically, which , of course, Flintfan had mentioned in the original post.
Seeing that now, I would try smoothing out the fore edge of the chamber lead and see what kind of accuracy you end up with. The rifling looks quite good downstream from the chamber.

I wonder if a previous owner experienced some slight ringing in the chambers and had them reamed out to clean them up(?)



Thanks again for the replies everyone. I had thought that the reaming might have been done to remove some chamber ringing, and that is a possibility. Due to the hack job of using a simple square end reamer though, I have a feeling it was done by a garage gunsmith to lengthen the chamber. This gun did come out of Canada, so it is possible the work was done in a remote area where function was more important than form in an attempt to use available ammunition. Regardless, it obviously needs some bore work done (along with some other minor issue to the other areas of the rifle) to bring it back into shooting condition, which was reflected in the price I got it for. Since the rifle is out of proof to begin with, I have no hesitations to having it lined back to original chamber specs.

I took some pics of the original proof marks for those interested.







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Flintfan
.224 member


Reged: 07/08/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Minnesota
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: CptCurl]
      #269150 - 11/08/15 09:37 PM

Quote:

Flintfan,

Welcome to the party!

I have a .360 Miniature built by Rigby in 1880. If I can find the time, I'll dig it out and measure its twist.

We would love to see photos of your rifle. You can see mine here: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....0&fpart=all

Curl



Absolutely beautiful rifle Curl, and in very high condition. I would love to know what the twist rate is in your rifle if you have the time.

I'll try to work on my photos and get some of the overall rifle, the condition of my H&H can't hold a candle to your Rigby, but still might be of interest. I know these miniature express rifles were not built by H&H, same as their rook rifles, but were built by other makers to H&H specifications if I correctly remember the research done by Mr. Dallas in his new book. Which is what you could say of any H&H gun made before the factory was built in 1893 I guess.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: Flintfan]
      #269161 - 12/08/15 12:08 AM

What is the rifling twist now?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Flintfan
.224 member


Reged: 07/08/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Minnesota
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: DarylS]
      #269166 - 12/08/15 12:58 AM

1-46, which I was very surprised to find. It seems with a twist that slow, it would only be compatible with the smallest 150 gr bullet this cartridge was loaded with. To my modern sensibilities it seems like it would even be too slow to stabilize that bullet properly. 1-46 would make a fine round ball twist though.

This is why I am trying to find out what twists other might have in their rifles. So far it's looking like anywhere between 1-15 to 1-18. Hopefully Curl has a chance to compare what is in his Rigby, which would be an excellent rifle to compare it to.

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3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1465
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: Flintfan]
      #269167 - 12/08/15 01:49 AM

Ah Ha.......it's a single shot.....I was under the mistaken impression that it was a double rifle! So no worry about regulation with an odd cartridge conversion. The "100" on the proof mark means "100 bore" or essentially .360 under the 1875 proof system.

Well; I'd get it going one of two ways:
1) Clean up the leads to the rifling and form some brass to fit your chamber, and us a cast lead "express bullet" to suit your twist. Easiest and least expensive.
-or-
Reline and rechamber to a small easy caliber like 32-40 WCF or 9.3x72R

Definitely NOT a hotter modern smokeless cartridge.
Have Fun.

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: 3DogMike]
      #269201 - 13/08/15 01:05 AM

FlintFan,

I measured my Rigby .360 BPE. It has a twist rate of one turn in 21 inches. It is regulated for 200 grain bullets.

Hope this helps.
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Flintfan
.224 member


Reged: 07/08/15
Posts: 7
Loc: Minnesota
Re: 360 black powder express twist rate [Re: CptCurl]
      #269203 - 13/08/15 02:34 AM

Thank you! That is exactly what I was looking for, and yes, it will help.



Quote:

FlintFan,

I measured my Rigby .360 BPE. It has a twist rate of one turn in 21 inches. It is regulated for 200 grain bullets.

Hope this helps.
Curl



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