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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2109
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety?
      #269042 - 08/08/15 10:04 AM

Hello all.
I am building a Rigby style muzzleloading rifle with a stalking safety. I have only handled a few originals with such safety's and I have never had the opportunity to take one of those locks apart. From what I have seen there are safeties the lock the hammer and some that lock the tumblers. Some may lock both.

What I am looking for is some good pictures of original locks which at disassembled, so I can get some ideas as to which system I would like to make. Is there anyone out there that could send me some pics?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: szihn]
      #269051 - 08/08/15 12:18 PM

Dan Pharris (Montana) might be able to help you on that, at least concerning Manton locks, Steve.

I was under the impression the stalking safety engaged the hammer/cock itself, at 1/2 bent position, and released automatically when the cock was brought to full bent position.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2109
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: DarylS]
      #269057 - 08/08/15 03:28 PM

Hi Daryl
I am also told that the safety is supposed to pop out when the hammer is cocked, but I do not know if that was how they were all made. The originals I have seen and handled were not all that way, but it's very possible that some degree of wear was responsible for them not working properly.

As I said in the 1st post, I have not had a chance to see one taken apart, so I am unsure as to how the parts are supposed to work. I am also sure that different makers would have used different systems.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: szihn]
      #269065 - 08/08/15 11:54 PM

The safety on my Alex Henry muzzle loader operates in the same way as the Alex Henry cartridge guns.
It is a slide which engages a slot on the underside of the hammer when at half cock. It must be manually disengaged before bringing the hammer to full cock.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: Huvius]
      #269066 - 09/08/15 12:39 AM

Steve - had another thought - Jerry Huddleston - engraver and rifle builder has built more than one of the systems, I think and perhaps has also posted them in building on the ALR site.
I think if you check through his profile you might come up with the threads on this work.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: DarylS]
      #275239 - 18/12/15 02:03 PM

I was looking at an Alex Henry 577 double I just got.
It has what most would consider "stalking safeties" but instead of holding the hammers at half or full cock, they keep the hammers at their rebounded position.
I had not considered the need to hold the hammers in their static rebounded position before, but when you think of it, there is a need to prevent an accidental discharge in the event the rifle falls or is dropped.
The rebounded hammer, sitting off of the striker, could fire the rifle if struck in that way whereas a non-rebounding hammer is already fully down when closed and the hammers let off half cock.

So, to my mind, these safeties are not at all "stalking safeties" but simply a safety to prevent accidental discharge.
Truly, by name, a Stalking Safety should keep the rifle safely at FULL cock so not to make any noise when bringing the rifle ready while stalking game.
Admittedly, the hammer safeties which I have been calling Stalking Safeties for years tend to hold the hammers at half cock which lend little to being silently actuated in a quiet hunting situation.
Better noise control than a full motion of the hammer, but not really that silent.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: Huvius]
      #275308 - 19/12/15 11:51 AM

Huvius - pics of your Alexander Henry are ESSENTIAL for further comment!!

Is it percussion or a cartridge arm?

Regarding "stalking" safeties, I have always, as you, considered that they were a predecessor to rebounding locks (in quality rifles) as a safety device to prevent accidental discharge, at the half cock position

Logically, your comment that they would be better on full cock, so that only one movement is required to have the rifle ready for shooting, is very valid, but not the norm in these rifles.
All my pre-rebounding lock rifles have them at half cock

Manufacturers ( and hunters?) of the day always? had them at half cock

Alexander Henry, was at the forefront of modifications for the advancement of manufacture, (see his single shot rifles) so it is logical he was the leader of such issues, and maybe ahead of the crowd

On another point, my postings on other forums (forae?) have had little response, except that there is little or no info on exports to Nepal, but they must have been there, possibly to the Nepal Royal family - you may have a treasure!

Good luck in your shooting

Tony

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Loc: Colorado
Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: TH44]
      #275355 - 20/12/15 03:57 AM

The 577 is a cartridge double.
This is the safety.



As opposed to my non-rebounding 500 double with the safety at half-cock.



Close ups:





--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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TH44
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: Huvius]
      #275390 - 20/12/15 12:25 PM

Huvius - It is interesting that your full cock safety is at the front. According to Wal Winfer the single shots had front and rear "stalking" safeties both acting at the half cock position

Alexander Henry, like all gunmakers, bought in locks (often from Joseph Brazier, the premier lockmaker of the era) so a pair with full cock safeties may have been bought as a one (or two) offs

Also the flatter (earlier?) hammers are very nice

Is it for .577 - 3"? or 2 3/4" or 2 1/2" case?

A full set of pics would be most appreciated

Tony

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DarylS
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: TH44]
      #275393 - 20/12/15 12:42 PM

Perhaps the pictures on this web site will help.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Manton+Fl...gQ9TCAYc7p5A%3D

Here is a cap-lock with rear safety.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Manton+Fl...gQ9TCAYc7p5A%3D

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: TH44]
      #275394 - 20/12/15 01:38 PM

Quote:

Huvius - It is interesting that your full cock safety is at the front. According to Wal Winfer the single shots had front and rear "stalking" safeties both acting at the half cock position

Alexander Henry, like all gunmakers, bought in locks (often from Joseph Brazier, the premier lockmaker of the era) so a pair with full cock safeties may have been bought as a one (or two) offs

Also the flatter (earlier?) hammers are very nice

Is it for .577 - 3"? or 2 3/4" or 2 1/2" case?

A full set of pics would be most appreciated

Tony



It is interesting that the safeties are in front of the hammer but I suppose they are less likely to be accidentally disengaged placed there.
As for making the safety work at off, half or full cock, it is just at what position the underside of the hammer is grooved to accept the safety slide. It would be very easy to add another groove in order for a safety to work at half and full cock. That would be a perfect setup IMO and it matters not what type or who made the locks.

I thought the flat sided hammers would have been an earlier style too but it is a later gun than the 500 with the rounded hammer sides. I think H&H went back and forth with their hammer styles too. Maybe it was optional for the buyer but not worth noting in the ledger.
It is a 577 3-1/4"
I will get pictures and specs up soon.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: Huvius]
      #275430 - 21/12/15 12:27 PM

[quotea
Truly, by name, a Stalking Safety should keep the rifle safely at FULL cock so not to make any noise when bringing the rifle ready while stalking game.
Admittedly, the hammer safeties which I have been calling Stalking Safeties for years tend to hold the hammers at half cock which lend little to being silently actuated in a quiet hunting situation.
Better noise control than a full motion of the hammer, but not really that silent.


There is nothing complicated about bringing an external hammer lock noiselessly to full cock. Simply bring the hammer back from the half cock or rebound position while pulling the trigger at the same time, and then, with the hammer in full cock position, release the trigger and allow it to noiselessly engage the full cock bent.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: xausa]
      #275443 - 22/12/15 04:50 AM

Holding the trigger back and pulling the cock to full, allows full cocking from 1/2 to full - after disengaging the safety.

That is how I clock all my hammered rifles when hunting.

I can see thought that having a safe at "full bent" would to useful, however holding a rifle at full cock seems distressful on the springs. Yes - that is how most hammerless guns are carried.

However, with a hammered gun at full 'bent', there is more than a likely possibility of the hook of the hammer catching a branch and breaking it off or braking the safety if thus equipped, then if at 1/2 'bent' position. Maybe that is just "grasping for straws" & not a reality. Seeing a hammer at full bent just seems 'less safe' or "odd", safety engaged or not.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2109
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: Muzzleloading stalking rifle with safety? [Re: DarylS]
      #277592 - 05/02/16 02:15 PM

Well I got it done and it works well.
Thanks for the insights guys.

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