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TennHillBilly
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Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story?
      #268669 - 29/07/15 04:11 AM

Short version: Allegedly, PH assists American dentist hunter luring lion onto private land, shoots with bow, lion found apparently next day. Seems land owner and PH charged.....if I get the story straight.

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larcher
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #268671 - 29/07/15 05:45 AM

today a very different look at this fool hunt on BBC.
According to BBC a warden in Wankee park was induced with 55 k USD to lure Cecil (You see the shit coming with first the lion being adorned with a name to have it out of the hunting pool, telling it crudely, sort of of movie star)
I keep on, luring the famous lion to get out of Wankee in communal land to badly been arrowed by a spaniard who has bribed a game officer for 55 K USD. It resulted that after 40 hours tracking the lion (on communal land), was finished with a rifle and on the spot skinned (and beheaded according to sorry media).
The PH is now barred out of the PH association of Zim.

So now how can we (if we ever can) react to the demise of a wonderful lion that spent his whole life under the spotlights, an iconic lion so well known and displayed by ecofraudsters?
I know Spaniards and hunted in Spain, devoted hunters, that some can consider cruel, but who have cruel but etablished and assumed traditions.
The spanish hunter is now in big shit for bribing a game warden and for having put any possible money for this trophy. But was not been arranged before. Money dealings have been done, and now everybody on earth is now rightfully getting on its pityful right horse?
Money vs clowns. Your opinion, respectfully please?

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375Brno
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: larcher]
      #268696 - 29/07/15 11:17 AM

I think the facts are still coming out on this one.
Apparently a U.S. Shooter has claimed that he shot the lion however did not know it was Cecil.
I am sure we will get more info soon.
Rick


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: 375Brno]
      #268714 - 29/07/15 07:39 PM

Quote:

On Tuesday, Zimbabwe National Parks issued a statement confirming the charges.

"Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris, is facing criminal charges for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015," the statement said.

"All persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges.

"Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt."





Quote:

Mr Bronkhorst, who will appear at Hwange magistrates court on Wednesday, said he was unaware of Cecil's fame.

"It was a magnificent, mature lion. We did not know it was well-known lion. I had a licence for my client to shoot a lion with a bow and arrow in the area where it was shot," he said.




Quote:

Lion hunting using firearms is legal in South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique and Tanzania – and bow and arrow hunting is legal in all the same countries but Tanzania




Quote:

According to the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter and Guides Association, bow hunting is only permissible in private hunting concessions or communal hunting areas - never in a national park or government-controlled safari area.

Lions are hunted either statically, by hanging bait from a tree then hiding nearby, or by stalking.





Quote:

During the hunt – which the organisers later admitted was badly carried out – it was alleged that Cecil was lured at night about half a mile out of the national park using bait, and then shot with a bow and arrow. The next day he was found wounded by the hunters and killed, before being beheaded and skinned.





http://www.businessinsider.com/a-dentist...ons-2015-7?IR=T

Took all tge guff and bullshit out of the story.

The only questionable things seem to be whether the Outfitter and Landowner had a permit or quota to hunt a lion or not. It is contradicted in the fictional article.

The other questionable thing is the removal of the collar from the lion. But if skinning and removing the lion's head for trophy purposes, a collar would be removed anyway. And the outfitter informed Parks the next day.

Baiting is legal.

If the outfitter had the quota hunting a lion which leaves Hwange Park is legal.

From the article it says using a bow is legal in Zimbabwe for lion hunting.

The Gwayi Conservancy is a conservanmcy consisting of a number of private farms. So not part of the Park.

Killing a lion with a "name" is unfortunate due to the bad PR but not really relevant.

Killing a collared lion I believe is also legal if outside the Park.

"Luring" the lion outside the park ... if it was merely baited outside, not an issue at all.

Usual BS we expect nowadays from greenie press where the "lion king" exists in real life ...

--------------------
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Edited by NitroX (29/07/15 07:44 PM)


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375Brno
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268716 - 29/07/15 07:56 PM

Another interesting fact here is that our dentist has previous "form" in this area.
He was previously convicted of killing a bear in the U.S. and trying to claim it was shot in an authorised zone which it wasn't. That is not relevant in this case however it will be interesting to see what happens in the court case.
Rick


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: 375Brno]
      #268717 - 29/07/15 08:37 PM

Quote:

has previous "form" in this area.




Really this seems to be a huge anti bullshit storm.

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Huvius
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268718 - 29/07/15 10:35 PM

I went and read every article I could find on this and agree with NitroX that the only question is whether the PH had proper licensing for that particular area. I'd guess that he wouldn't have reported the kill to the wardens if he had not.
Even if vindicated, the dentist may have to close shop or become an SCI endorsed dentist!
Typical character assassination by the press.

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poprivit
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Huvius]
      #268724 - 29/07/15 11:32 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah …

My $.02

I'll supply the rope, you find the right tree.

Wait till the antis start to have fun with this.

'There, Bwana, shoot right in front of the radio collar."

Legal, or not, he sure lit a firestorm which will do none of us any good.


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TennHillBilly
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: poprivit]
      #268730 - 30/07/15 02:34 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but I see a dishonesty here. Assuming the story and pictures are correct, you wound an animal, the next day (according to what I read) "hunters" track and kill the animal, and you have your picture taken with the animal you didn't kill.......really! Wonder about his other 'kills'?
And, 'firestorm'! Listened to the radio last night, story on 'Savage Nation', and Atlanta talk radio, 2 out of 3 stations I picked up.

Edited by TennHillBilly (30/07/15 02:42 AM)


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Huvius
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: TennHillBilly]
      #268734 - 30/07/15 05:13 AM

Much of the controversy is about whether it was a legal method of take, particularly if it is lawful to lure an animal off of a reserve by baiting and whether it is legal to shoot a collared lion.
Poprivit's joke about the collar notwithstanding, I cannot find a single picture online of Cecil where a tracking collar is visible. Big maned lions must have a narrow small collar which is much smaller in diameter than the mane so it is very possible that the collar was not evident.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Huvius]
      #268735 - 30/07/15 06:05 AM

Both guides are under arrest. Apparently they drove a truck dragging bush meat in the park where this lion was located to lure him out (it worked) If convicted they can get 15 years . So far beside verbal abuse nothing has happened to the Minnesota dentist ....yet ,but apparently if charged the USA will extradite to Zimbabwe

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #268737 - 30/07/15 07:45 AM

Once you start calling a lion "Cecil" nothing is going to make much sense afterwards !!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #268746 - 30/07/15 02:23 PM

Quote:

Apparently they drove a truck dragging bush meat in the park where this lion was located to lure him out





If true and it was actually in the Park I would guess they have some sort of offence to answer for.

However if merely dragging animal carcases near the boundary of the Park, there is nothing wrong with the practice. There are reasons why the concessions near the Hwange Park boundaries are valuable and also why hunts there attract a price premium.

"where this lion was located" - to me sounds like media speak as any hunter would know lions are nomadic in their ranges which are of a considerable size.

Some of the best elephant tusks in the 90's of pounds have come from these sorts of areas.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #268747 - 30/07/15 02:24 PM

Quote:

Once you start calling a lion "Cecil" nothing is going to make much sense afterwards !!




A very true statement.

--------------------
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...
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268748 - 30/07/15 02:30 PM

On our TV news right now.

Usual level of lact of any facts.

The lion was "protected" per the commentator.

The blackie gov't man just spouted crap and nothing of value or fact.

I waited to hear that the outfitter did not have a lion permit/quota but of course nothing on that was said.

Called the lion killing "poaching" and then tied the lion hunt in with the poaching of many lions in Zimbabwe, which as we all know is NOT by safari clients.

But lets not ruin a simple emotive story with facts, as people will turn off if their brains are overloaded.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268754 - 30/07/15 03:37 PM

http://huntforever.org/2015/07/29/sci-su...death-of-cecil/

LION CONSERVATION, WITHIN SCI
SCI SUSPENDS MEMBERSHIP OF HUNTER AND PROFESSIONAL HUNTER INVOLVED IN DEATH OF CECIL
JULY 29, 2015

Washington, D.C. – Safari Club International (SCI) supports a full and thorough investigation of the circumstances surrounding the death of Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe. SCI has imposed immediate emergency membership suspensions of both the involved hunter and his guide/professional hunter, and they will remain in place pending the outcome of an investigation.

Safari Club International condemns unlawful and unethical hunting practices. SCI supports only legal hunting practices and those who comply with all applicable hunting rules and regulations, and SCI believes that those who intentionally take wildlife illegally should be prosecuted and punished to the maximum extent allowed by law.

Safari Club International is a 501(c)4 corporation, has approximately 47,000 members worldwide, many of whom also hunt worldwide. Safari Club’s missions include the conservation of wildlife, protection of the hunter’s rights, and education of the public concerning hunting and its use as a conservation and management tool.

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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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500Boswell
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268757 - 30/07/15 03:59 PM

They were also having a moan about banning the import of hunting Trophies ,does anyone know whats happening with this in the U.S and Aust ?, whether the whole Cecil thing is being used as a start ......... or the excuse to kick this off

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268758 - 30/07/15 04:03 PM

John, correct me if I'm wrong but Zim hates all Americans ( hunters) because of sanctions brought about by the US Government on Zim but Aussies and other countries were allowed to hunt there and if that is correct, WHY would America allow extradiction of an American citizen to Zim??

This is not condoning the killing of 'Cecil'



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #268763 - 30/07/15 06:22 PM


Cecil (right) pictured fighting with Jericho, who is now the highest ranking lion in their pride, in May 2014. According to local legend, Cecil was kicked out of his pride and wandered alone until he met Jericho


So it sounds like "Cecil" was on the last legs of his life. An alpha lion which is thrown out of his pride rarely last more than a year or two.

The above comment also disputes the claims that the cubs of Cecil will now be killed since his death.


Quote:

It is believed Cecil (right) and Jericho (left) both had a pride, comprised of six lionesses and several young cubs, situated in the park before they joined forces. They are pictured here in May 2014





http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...l#ixzz3hI8bXyV8

PS spot the collar ...

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268764 - 30/07/15 06:33 PM

Confused:

The day after the hunt, it is believed Mr Bronkhorst went to the Parks and Wildlife Management Authority and reported the hunt.

Park authorities confirmed that a valid license was held but that it did not specify where the hunting of the lion could take place.

Using a bow and arrow to hunt animals is allowed in Zimbabwe as long an hunting permit is held.

The permit specifies that the hunting of animals inside a national park or government-run safari area is illegal.

An early statement issued by the Zimbabwean Parks Authority said: 'Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris, is facing criminal charges for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015.

'Both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt.'

***
Rodrigues says the following, though IMO per past history he is not a reputable or credible person so his comments need to be considered in that light (IMO):

Johnny Rodrigues, of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force (ZCTF), said: 'They went hunting at night with a spotlight and they spotted Cecil.

'They tied a dead animal to their vehicle to lure Cecil out of the park and they scented an area about half a kilometre from the park.'

Rodrigues revealed that Palmer shot his bow and arrow at Cecil, but failed to kill him and that they stalked the wounded and stricken lion before finally shooting him dead with a gun and beheading him.

***

However IF they used of the spotlight and IF they went into the Park may be a reason for the charges against them.

Note it is common for people doing game drives to use a spotlight in Hwange. Using one to spot game however would not be ethnical. Illegal or not in the circumstances, I have no idea.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268765 - 30/07/15 06:45 PM

JOINT PRESS STATEMENT BY ZIMBABWE PARKS AND WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AUTHORITY AND SAFARI OPERATORS ASSOCIATION OF ZIMBABWE ON THE ILLEGAL HUNT OF A COLLARED LION AT ANTOINETTE FARM, HWANGE DISTRICT ON 1 JULY 2015 IN GWAYI CONSERVANCY BY BUSHMAN SAFARIS PROFESSIONAL HUNTER, THEO BRONKHORST.
Theo Bronchorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris is facing criminal charges (VIC FALLS Police CR 27/07/2015) for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015. The lion named ‘Cecil’ was well known and regularly sighted by tourists in the Main camp area of Hwange National Park. It is alleged that the hunter connived with the Antoinette land owner, Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu to kill the lion. Ongoing investigations to date, suggest that the killing of the lion was illegal since the land owner was not allocated a lion on his hunting quota for 2015. Therefore, all persons implicated in this case are due to appear in court facing poaching charges.
Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management as the Regulatory Authority and custodian of all wild animals in Zimbabwe issues hunting permits and hunting quota for all hunting areas in Zimbabwe so that only animals on quota are to be hunted. In this case, both the professional hunter and land owner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt.
Both professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst’s licence number 553 who was involved in the hunt and the owner of Antoinette farm, Mr. Honest Trymore Ndlovu are being jointly charged for illegally hunting the lion. The two are due to appear in court on Wednesday, 29 July 2015. Efforts are being made to interview the other professional hunter, Zane Bronkhorst, licence number 558, who was also involved in the illegal hunt.
The Professional Hunter Theo Bronkhosrt’s Licence has been suspended with immediate effect. The lion trophy has also been confiscated. The relevant stakeholders have been informed and are being updated about this matter.
…………………………………………….. ……………………………………………….
E. CHIDZIYA E.A. FUNDIRA
DIRECTOR GENERAL PRESIDENT
ZPWMA SOAZ

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268766 - 30/07/15 07:42 PM

Excellent summary of the issues and points as they are now known here:

http://www.africanhunteronline.com/

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268767 - 30/07/15 07:46 PM

Borrowed from elsewhere:

Originally posted by Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation:

We have been following these threads with great interest. we emphasize we are advocates of "sustainable utilization " as a conservation tool , some Basic facts that have been verified by several reliable and credible sources :-

The operator / professional hunters in question had a valid TR2 form stamped by the Zimbabwe parks & wildlife authority. This form once stamped allows a hunt to take place."authority to hunt"

Each and every property or hunting concession to be hunted by the registered operator/client / professional hunter during the course of conducting the hunt must be recorded on this TR2 form

All hunting Quota's are issued by Zimbabwe parks Authority, and ARE AREA SPECIFIC!!! The property in question where the lion was hunted is "Antonette", which incidentally was legally owned by Peter Johnston /Rosslyn Safaris, and was taken without compensation during the land grab. This could get

Any off take of animals be it for cropping,management or trophy hunting purposes has to be applied for and approved. The land owner is then issued with a "quota" which is valid from 01/01 -31/12 of each year. Few clients fully understand the different land classifications Zimbabwe has for its hunting industry.

1.government hunting concessions
2.communal areas - campfire or tribal areas generally with human settlement within these areas
3.private land - farms,ranches, conservancies

All these areas have different regulations and rules. There is no one standard set of laws that govern safari hunting across these land classifications. Naturally this is where the foreign client assumes his hunt should or will be legal and be compliant in local laws etc. His link being the professional hunter for everything that happens on the ground during the hunt, and in most cases the "operator" or company he has contracted to hunt through would have done all the paper work for his hunt, TR2 / hunt registration etc

99% of clients will never have had sight of the areas quota, again here he is generally relying on/be guided accordingly by his professional hunter.So client arrives in camp, he has probably not had sight of this TR2, as these are acquired ahead of time, usually before the clients even arrive in Zimbabwe, all necessary information is usually taken from the safari contract form or is forwarded by client / booking agent to operator / professional hunter. He would have his basic list of main species he would be hunting.off they go hunting.as soon as you leave camp and have rifles prepared,tracker etc on your vehicle you are deemed to be hunting,have the intent to hunt,look for,track stalk etc

Here is where the problem starts... Even if this client/hunter had shot a bushbuck,hyena, or whatever other animal/bird etc for that matter, that was not on the approved hunting quota for the said property for that current hunting year. They are technically hunting legally in terms of the authority to hunt , the valid TR2 form,but he has just killed an animal without the relevant approved and allocated quota / tag for that specific property. You have just poached that species . The onus is on the professional hunter conducting the safari, and the buck stops with him period!!


1.there is no law gazetted in Zimbabwe that specifically forbids the shooting of collard animals. It's the unwritten rule amongst "professional hunters" should the collar be visible that these animals are off limits.

2.of the 65 or so lions that have been collard in matabeleland north ( hwange, gwaai,Victoria falls,etc) in the past decade or so, 35 have died, with 24 of these being shot by either sport hunters, on problem animal control - cattle killers, man eaters etc . In the event one is killed, it's professional to return the collard to the research organization with date,location etc the animal was killed etc

3.the professional hunter/land owner did themselves no favors by trying to destroy the lions collar. No lion tag/quota , there was mention of "quota transfer ".. This is absolutely diabolical , but unfortunately is has and still happens. That's a lengthy topic which we will go in depth about in a separate post.

4. Did the client actually know the operator / land owner had no lion on quota? We very much doubt it.

5. Did the operator / professional hunter probably take a chance, hell yes!! If the lion had been cleanly killed, would we be in the PR storm we find ourselves in... Most probably not.

6.the operator and the land owner appeared in court today in hwange, and were granted bail.

Unfortunately some operators and professional hunters continue to "manipulate the system", quota transfers between areas, unsustainable quotas,with the blessing of government offices and / or use of influential political partners,moral and/or scientific conservation ethics are sacrificed for financial gain. Until there is a complete and thorough restructuring in the relevant ministry, government departments,and even our local hunting associations to a lesser degre our wildlife heritage will remain at risk.

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: NitroX]
      #268769 - 30/07/15 09:00 PM

This was just posted by Ivan Carter ;


CECIL THE LION
I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .

1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period .
2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit.
3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar.
4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution….
5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident.
6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.

My thoughts…
I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.

There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...

A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –

To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be. https://www.facebook.com/ivancartersafrica?pnref=story

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (30/07/15 09:05 PM)


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375Brno
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Reged: 18/10/05
Posts: 354
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Re: Any thoughts on the 'Cecil the lion' story? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #268773 - 30/07/15 09:35 PM

Well said by Ivan Carter.
If the appropriate courts find these guys guilty then throw the book at them.
Again if they are guilty, this incident has made it worse for all responsible hunters and shooters.
Rick


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