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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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lancaster
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This is my muzzle loader
      #253292 - 08/09/14 01:50 AM

There are many muzzle loader, but nothing like this.


its a flintlock Jägerbüchse




made by Malherbe Brother's in Liege maybe between 1800 and 1813



sometimes someone cut this numbers into the stock
















the rifle have a bayonet stud on the right side but the "bayonet was a "Hirschfänger" rifle sword.




the "Hirschfänger" deer sword was the insignia and pride of the deer legitimate hunter.
it may have looked similar like this ones







the octagonal barrel have seven grooves


a 16,0mm ball falls into the muzzle


a 16,5mm ball seems not to fill the grooves completly so its maybe a +/- 17,0mm groove diameter









a standing and a folding leaf





SO WHAT MAKES THIS RIFLE SO SPECIAL

its on the barrel




in gold you find " AUS DEM FREIHEITSKRIEGE 1813 u. 1814 GOTTFRIED DIETTGEN FREIWILLIGER RHEIN. JÄGER" - from the Freedom War 1813 and 1814, Gottfried Diettgen Voluntary Rhineland Jäger"





what was a "Freiwilliger" or voluntary Jäger?
maybe we have to start with the Jäger units founded by Frederick the Great, King of Prussia in 1744. these units were formed by Forester/Hunter - this was ONE profession in this time - who came into the military for serving to get a appointment into the state forest's after period of service.
these Jäger were different from the common line infantery in many ways. they dont had a parade drill but hunting hound's with them, give signals with hunting horn's and every man had his own private rifle he was geting a compensation for use it.
in the american independence war german Jäger units were probably the best the british had.

in the napoleonic war of 1813/1814 there were many units of of so called "Freiwillige Jäger" formed from all over germany. these young man paid for theirs own rifle and uniform and fight like the regular Jäger units with the short flintlock jäger rifle.


from the point of view of the regular army many of this units were a little bit chaotic like the Lützower Jäger



other like this Mecklenburger Jäger may have been well dressed if we believe the artist Richard Knötel



a young man leaving his family for going to the Jäger







its interesting to compare the 1800 made flintlock muzzle loader with the M 1860 prussian Dreyse fusilier rifle. you see that the rifle model of 1860 have allmost the same design vocabulary like the old flintlock muzzle loader. this rifle is much longer but only because of the bolt action. barrel length of the dreyse is 75 cmm and of the flintlock 72 cm.
so the Dreyse rifle is one of the missing links between the muzzle loader and the modern bolt action rifle. the other missing link is the french chassepot needle fire bolt action rifle.
the real bolt action as we know it starts with mauser model of 1871.

a

















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (08/09/14 01:54 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: lancaster]
      #253293 - 08/09/14 02:32 AM

Very interestig rifles. As you lancaster would know, in swedish language word "jägare" means hunter but in finnish language we have word "jääkäri" which has meant those finnish volunteers whose has been educated to soldier in germany 1915-17. Nowadays "jääkäri" means ordinary infantry soldier.

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lancaster
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: Igorrock]
      #253298 - 08/09/14 03:48 AM

there is no mystery about this because the finnish volunteers served in the prussian Reserve Jäger Bataillion no.27 and take rifles and complete equipment back home. you can say they were voluntary Jäger like this man from the napoleonic war.
this prussian Jäger battalion was more or less the model the finnish army was formed.

you can see such things allways best on the headgear! the 19.century busby so typical for the Jäger became unpractical in WW 1 and was replaced by the moutain cap of the tirolian Kaiserjäger in german jäger battailions too. (the kaiserjäger where moutain hunter regiments)
so the Bergmütze came into finnish service with the finnish volunteers.


Kaiserjäger



Finnish Jääkari


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: lancaster]
      #253302 - 08/09/14 04:40 AM

Lancaster

What an excellent article, and I love your historic rifle. Great to have rifles of heritage in your gun racks.

I stayed with friends South of Hamburg in 1988. Peter used to shoot in the Shutzenfest each year for his village, which I believe, was originally established in towns and villages to improve and maintain the shooting skills of residents. A great tradition which is now a sporting event.

Here in South Aust we have a "Shutzenfest" which was originally based in Hahndorf! It is run by the local German Association but is principally now a beer and "German" heritage festival. Knee slapping, lederhosen and the like, plus lots of boozing.

A shoot is still conducted at the time by the Hahndorf Rifle Club.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Tom_H
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: NitroX]
      #253304 - 08/09/14 05:06 AM

That was excellent. A great rifle and the history lesson to go with it.

Now to hear about the range report...

Cheers

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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Igorrock
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: Tom_H]
      #253305 - 08/09/14 05:39 AM

Actually, at wartime the correct title for ordinary infantry man was "sotamies" ie. soldier man. Only some special forces soldiers (for example infantry soldiers in armoured forces) were called "jääkäri", in this case "panssarijääkäri".

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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: Igorrock]
      #253308 - 08/09/14 08:48 AM

Thank you Lancaster - marvelous stuff - nice condition, too, both of them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #253310 - 08/09/14 10:15 AM

Very nice - great history!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Viking338
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: tinker]
      #253311 - 08/09/14 11:30 AM

How wonderful, your stories are always fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us all, beautiful artistic photos too

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lancaster
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: Tom_H]
      #253313 - 08/09/14 02:00 PM

Quote:

That was excellent. A great rifle and the history lesson to go with it.

Now to hear about the range report...

Cheers

Tom




shooting the rifle is something proplematic, what if only a small part broke. in any case the rifle have to be examine be a real muzzle loader specialist before who must say its in the shooting condition it looks.
such things starts with the right size of the flint

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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ovny
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: lancaster]
      #268346 - 22/07/15 08:19 PM

I'm saving money to buy an Ardesa Hawken Woodsman in 50 caliber. I will hunt wildboars with this rifle. What do you think about this??? When I have this rifle I will put photos.

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: ovny]
      #268354 - 23/07/15 01:01 AM

What I find quite interesting, is the French 1877 musket lock on a German-style military rifle. I am thinking perhaps the Liege factory sold them in the private market - or perhaps it was removed from a Charleville musket, or was simply surplus?

I am not familiar with an Ardesa Hawken rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ovny
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #268377 - 23/07/15 06:54 AM

I think the United States is marketed as Firearmas Traditions.

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: ovny]
      #268392 - 23/07/15 08:34 AM

tks Ovny.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ovny
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #268484 - 24/07/15 09:41 PM

Quote:

tks Ovny.




What? I dont't understand. Sorry.

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: ovny]
      #268490 - 25/07/15 01:14 AM

By tks Ovny, I am saying THANKS or thank you for explaining it is the "Traditions" Hawken.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #268510 - 25/07/15 11:25 AM

Quote:

By tks Ovny, I am saying THANKS or thank you for explaining it is the "Traditions" Hawken.




I did enjoy seeing this thread again anew.

Confused though, which is the "Traditions Hawken"? Worked it out. The musket Ovny wishes to buy.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (25/07/15 11:26 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: NitroX]
      #268525 - 26/07/15 02:46 AM

Traditions, in the States is a company selling reproduction rifles. My only real problem with them, is the insistance, as with TCenter, of calling their rifles "Hawken" when in fact they do not even resemble a real Hawken rifle.
1/2 stocked - yes, even to having 2 barrel keys, yes - but they have light weight barrels and stocks/locks and breeches not remotely resembling a REAL Hawken.

Probably the closest to a real Hawken in a reproduction rifle, is the Lyman Great Plains Rifle (GPR), yet they do not attempt to cash in on the Hawken name in their adverts, rather they call it a Great Plains Rifle, because it is NOT a Hawken.

That would be like calling a .50/.54/.58 or .72 cal. Pedersoli SXS a Holland and Holland, Blissett, Bond, Alex Henry, or whatever, rather than what it is, an inexpensive reproduction, called "Kodiak".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ovny
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: lancaster]
      #268530 - 26/07/15 07:50 AM

Thanks for your messages. Unfortunately in Spain is no other choice if I want to have a muzzleloader ... at least for a cheap option Pedersoli is more expensive.

By the way I feel I have reopened the topic. If I upset someone I beg forgiveness. I continue saving and "distracting" the woman money to buy the Ardesa.

Regards

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: ovny]
      #268536 - 26/07/15 10:25 AM

All is fine. No one is upset.
I also have a reproduction muzzleloading rifle - not perfect, but very close & well made. It is the Confederate rendition of the Enfield 1861 "Musketoon", and a good shooter it is, with patched round balls. I also have custom made muzzleloading rifles & a flintlock smoothbore, custom made.

Compared to $3,000.00 or thousands more $$ for custom rifles, the production rifles of Pedersoli, Traditions, Thompson Center and Lyman are quite inexpensive. They are entirely useable, but Hawken's they most definitely are not, that is all - a point I thought that should be made.

Ovny - have fun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (26/07/15 10:26 AM)


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ovny
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #268589 - 27/07/15 12:03 AM

Hello Daryl ... the only thing I wish is to catch a boar; with Ardesa with some certainty it means that despite being a reproduction is safe. In Spanish forums muzzleloader people using Hawken of Ardesa are very satisfied with the weapon.

Greetings and thanks,

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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DarylSModerator
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: ovny]
      #268592 - 27/07/15 01:33 AM

Yes - it will work just fine for you - naming it HAWKEN, is all that irks 'us'.

Have fun with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ovny
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: DarylS]
      #268638 - 28/07/15 03:28 AM

Quote:

Yes - it will work just fine for you - naming it HAWKEN, is all that irks 'us'.

Have fun with it.



Then I will refer to it as Ardesa ... no more. Thanks Daryl.

Ovny

--------------------
I am Spanish


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: ovny]
      #268656 - 28/07/15 07:19 PM

I have been looking for a usable muzzleloading shotgun for a while now after someone dented the barrels on an old Harkom I had. I picked this up at auction a few months ago, sight unseen and it has been here in the UK. I arrived here for a month on holiday 3 weeks ago and took the kids down to Devon for a few days camping. We set up a trap and I thought I would see how the old girl did. Slightly apprehensive since I have no idea when this was last fired but the chaps at the auction house assured me it was a "shooter". It is not a named gun (but 99% certain it was made by Charles Boswell, CB on barrels, Birmingham proof. I liked the fact that is utterly unmessed about with. Anyway, stoked it up with 2 3/4 drams of powder, 1 oz of no.6's, called pull and broke the clay !! Hooray. Didn't get to shoot it again as the kids monopolised it until I ran out of powder. What a hoot it is though. I'll be trying it on pheasants in December.











sorry for quality of pics


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: This is my muzzle loader [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #268657 - 28/07/15 07:20 PM

and sorry they are upside down !!

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