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iqbal
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Overunders vs.Side by sides
      #2673 - 08/05/03 02:27 AM

Most of us i.e.those over fifty, probably started hunting using side by sides.Some moved onto overunders & semi-autos and some refused to change.It is commonly said that O/U and Semi's have better pointability and therefore more accurate,especially in skeet,trap or clay shooting.I have personally seen an old pro.scoring 100% with a side by side and thus the argument of pointability gets doubtfull.However this may be an exceptional case and maybe O/U's are more accurate.Nonetheless side by sides are still very much in use and in England the other versions are looked down upon as being unsporting.
Personally i am now addicted to the O/U and find it easier to handle even though i started with a side by side and used it for many years.Anybody else feels the same way?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #2681 - 08/05/03 02:32 PM

iqbal

I grew up using a .410 side by side with twin triggers. In fact it was the first firearm I started using. Then a .22 single shot with light bird shot.

I have always used a side by side with twin triggers and they have always been field guns, even for the occasional trap or skeet shoot.

I did toy with a pump action for a while but ai shot it more and got less game, so back to the side by side.

Currently I own five shotguns, four side by sides and the pump action which wasn't consfiscated by the Aust gov't during the buyback as I have an exemption.

The side by sides are three 12 gauges, one an old cheapie with Damascus barrels with external hammers and a 2 1/2 inch chamber. The other two are a Simson Suhl and a Spanish Azhur which is one of those lovely Spanish detachable sidelock shotguns copied off a H&H model but at 1/30th the price. I actually bought the Simson and saw the Azhur a week later. Ended up fretting about it all weekend and drove straight back to town and bought it. It was broken for a while and has just been repaired so I can use it again .

I CAN NOT shoot single trigger double barrels and if using one 98% of the time end up pulling on the rear of the trigger guard.

I do not really do a lot of clay shooting but do attend a annual private shoot that combines trap, skeet and a simulated field during the day plus a dinner in the evening. For quite a few years mine was the only side by side but now there are several. Good .

I find an under and over better for trap but amazingly I usually shoot well on trap with my field s-s. In simulated the running bunny clays also never get away.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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ovis
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #2683 - 08/05/03 06:44 PM

igbal,

While I've used them all, at one time or another waterfowling, I still use a SxS. I'm fifty something and, you're right, I started hunting with an Ainsley H. Fox double. Now I own and shoot Parker Brother doubles which, to my way of thinking, are the best of the old American doubles. I still have one of the original run of Remington 870 pumps but keep it do to its history and seldom shoot it.
I really don't think it matters if the barrels are O&U or SxS. Fit and practice are what counts. I'm not much of a clay bird shooter, just never got the bug but put a bunch of Canvasbacks working the set and it's an entirely different matter. Just what you're used to I guess.

Joe

--------------------
"Where there's a hobble, there's hope."

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Mpofu
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: ovis]
      #2712 - 09/05/03 06:33 PM

Iqbal,
I find O&Us are more pointable , and have appreciably less muzzle flip.
The snob thing about S/S at formal driven shoots in the UK is more or less a thing of the past, though it does rear up every now and then.
I too use an O&U, and a semi auto for pigeon decoying, where one can fire off up to 300 shots in a day.
Mpofu.

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iqbal
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #2731 - 10/05/03 01:30 AM

To dwell further on the subject i started off with a Webly Scott,28 inch.12 gauge which i used for many years.Later i got hold of an Aya 1 combo i.e.26 and 28 inch bbls.a beautifully balanced gun and a pleasure to shoot.My romance with the O/U began with a Beretta 682 which i still have.I also use a Beretta Eurika mostly for duck shoots.For skeet and trap i use a Perazzi MX8 and you can't do better than that.Way back in 92 i was the national skeet shooting champion(showing of)but i still sometimes get the urge to take out my Ayas and shoot a few partridges.

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WyoHunter
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #4004 - 10/08/03 02:53 PM

I'm almost 60 and find I've always been able to shoot my Beretta O/U's better than S/S's. I've shot trap, skeet, sporting clays and box pigeons and the overwhelming shotgun type I've noticed is the O/U. A couple of years ago I purchased a new Franchi Alcione in 12 ga and like it very much. When I was much younger I owned a Fox 16 ga S/S and had a hard time with it. I switched to a Franchi O/U and that started my transition to the O/U.

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Hunting's a lifestyle and a passion not a competition!

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DaveJames
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: WyoHunter]
      #4006 - 10/08/03 03:06 PM

I started off with SxS and still shoot a few,but for most bird hunitng I have gone straight to the O&U, for me they seem to carry better and swing a little smoother

--------------------
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Honey_badger
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: DaveJames]
      #4088 - 31/08/03 02:37 AM

I use an old Bristol S/S both for game & clays. I think using it for clays puts me at something of a disadvantage, as I tend to get better resuts when I borrow a club O/U - I'm still not very good though! I don't mind handicapping myself with the S/S though. It has so much character and is a pleasure to hold & shoot. The point for me is that I use clays to shoot that gun, rather than using that gun to shoot clays, if that makes sense. I just like side by side doubles!

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docEE
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: Honey_badger]
      #4793 - 06/11/03 11:31 AM

The only side-by-side I have is one rifle, but will soon have possession of a Winchester 23, which should be fun. I have 4 over-under shotguns and am understandably more used to them. One shotgun and the rifle have two triggers, but I can't really say I'm well used to them at this point. The shotgun is a pre-war superposed by Browning with their "double-single" triggers, so I can shoot both barrels with either trigger... not a lot of point in moving it after the first shot!

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DBBill
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #5657 - 14/12/03 11:36 AM

Coming from a family of modest means I started out with an Ithaca Model 37 pumpgun and then to a Winchester Model 12 which I consider to the best the best repeating shotgun in the world and a great gun for shooting 16-yard American-style trap....and not a bad gun for the duck-blind either.

As I started buying my own guns I gravitated toward O/Us specifically Browning Superposed for upland birds and Krieghoff K-32s for competition but switched to mostly Perazzi's in the early 70's. Depending on the crowd I'm hunting with and the birds we're shooting, etc I will take a nice little Model 21 16ga or a Perazzi MX8 with ltwt barrels. I shoot the Perazzi best as I've used the same receiver, with an increasing number of barrels and stocks, for more than 30 years for Bunker, ATA Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, Live Pigeons and game birds....approaching medium 6-figures for a shell count.

Give me an O/U with a single trigger every time.

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gryphon
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: DBBill]
      #5659 - 14/12/03 01:16 PM

"I CAN NOT shoot single trigger double barrels and if using one 98% of the time end up pulling on the rear of the trigger guard."
Ha ha John Hahn i bet you would find the bloody trigger if you were following up a wounded leopard with the gun full of buck shot if he screamed like that haunting sound in the last post there.

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Dark_Helmet
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #6709 - 09/01/04 06:36 PM

I've never had the pleasure of actually shooting a side -by-side, but the one's I've hefted seem well up to the task of field use.

I shoot (quite well) an Ithica/SKB o/u 20ga and have killed a LOT of birds and many times more clays with it over the years.

That gun (originally my maternal grandfather's, before he died in '75) is quite simply an amazing shooter. 28" barrels, flawlessly balanced, and slicker than snot to operate. some I know like the sight picture of teh S/S better, but I have to shoot one-eyed (I know, I know... its just not happening, I'll explain later), and the S/S actually messes with my eye more than the o/u.

all in all, any good double is a fine weapon... its all in what works for you... now, would I COLLECT Over-Unders??? nah.

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Crazyquik
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #7536 - 27/01/04 01:42 PM

My favorite gun is far from my most rare or expensive one. Its a 20 gauge side by side my grandfather bought in a cafe one morning. Its called a Plymouth, although some research says it was probably built by Cresant Arms. Hardware store double barrel.

It carries so well in the field, its lighter than a 12, fun to shoot, and since it doesn't have a "pedigree" I dont have to worry about scratching or dinging up the stock any worse than it is. I've got a much nicer Ithaca 16 gauge SxS but I usually leave it at home when I go small game or upland hunting.

Same goes for my normal hunting buddy. He's got a pair of overunders that he shoots clays with, but when we go hunting he usually grabs a side by side too. Just a mystique about them I guess. Since I quit playing the clay games, I've shot that little double barrel as much as anything I own. On the other hand, I dont think I've ever killed anything with my competition gun.

My friend and I both prefer a good break action, usually a SxS, to a repeater in the field. We're not shooting for food, so that 3rd shot doesn't matter as much to us. Plus the instant choice of choke (shoot the right or the left) makes up for the lack of a third shot to some degree. Not to mention I feel more sporting and dapper with my "junk" hardware store gun than I would with a $1000 Bretta autochucker

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luv2safari
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #8016 - 01/02/04 04:51 PM

This isn't a simple question with a simple answer.
I would rather carry a SXS, and I would rather shoot an O/U.

A SXS lies across the arm so much better than those top heavy O/U's, but the O/U's seem to point so much better than those broad beamed SXS's.

My personal choice...several of each!


--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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iqbal
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: Crazyquik]
      #8026 - 02/02/04 02:07 AM

A few days back i was invited to a partridge shoot by a friend.The other members consisted of retired diplomats,retired and serving generals,big landlords etc.in fact this was a "whos who" of our society.When the guns came out i noticed several H@H's,Purdees,Greeners,Webleys and what have you.There was not a single O/U nor a semi-auto.I felt rather odd with my Beretta O/U,i did get some funny looks and one gentleman even asked me " what is that".I thanked my stars i had'nt brought my semi as that probably would have earned me a place with the beaters.
The point is that even now the S/S is considered to be ,say a superior weapon or rather one with class(at least to the hunters of the old school)and O/U's or semis are looked down upon.

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Chasseur
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #8933 - 13/02/04 11:08 AM

I must admit a bias towards SxS's if I had to shot an O/U I probably wouldn't shot a shotgun that often...

In terms of snobbism, I've foudn the reverse to be true at least in the US. Go on any skeet field, or even a sporting clays course with a SxS and see the looks you get from the O/U and Semi-auto guys. I've gotten tired of the sneers, and the comments like, "Watcha doing with that old coach gun?" (its not a coach gun...), "Nobody shoots them except guys who like shooting thier grandpa's old gun," and "is that gun safe?"





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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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ThomasEdwards
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: Chasseur]
      #8947 - 13/02/04 01:22 PM

...arrogant ignorance hath no bound...

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M82A1Barret50Cal
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: ThomasEdwards]
      #13856 - 22/04/04 03:54 PM

I have shot both and prefere a O/U. I find I shoot more accuratly and therefore get more game using the under over and thats why I am buying one

M82A1

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470Rigby
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: M82A1Barret50Cal]
      #13873 - 23/04/04 12:04 AM

It's "horses for courses"! Depends totally on the handling quality of the gun and whether it suits the type of shooting envisaged. Accordingly, it is difficult to generalise. Probably, the ammunition that is to be used will have as much bearing on deciding on an action type. For example, try finding an English s/s that you can shoot steel through, or something that will handle 40 gram loads for Geese, Foxes, etc.

IMO, very few modern U/O's have the handling qualities of a best London s/s game gun, particularly where the shooting is fast and instinctive. Sure, you could go down to a 20 bore U/O, or look around for one of those great little Browning Game guns for Rabbit or Quail shooting, but, all things being equal, U/O's are usually built heavier tha s/s's.

The exceptions to this are English U/O's like Boss's, or Woodward's. Can't vouch for Purdey's having never handled one.

For Clay targets, where shooting is more deliberate, the U/O rules supreme, but again, the gun's handling qualities are are of equal importance to the sighting plane.Many Sporting Clays shooters are now using 32" U/O's weighing over 8 pounds - try using that on Rabbits bolting through tussocks.

Finally, the shooters individual style has some bearing - depends wither you shoot maintained lead, swing through, snap, or some other system aimed at developing lead.

To illustrate - I use a 32" U/O for Sporting Clays and Ducks, 21/2" English U/O's for Pheasants, 20 bore English s/s's for Rabbits, and 28 bore English s/s's for Quail over a pointing dog. As I say, "horses for courses"!

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mntrapper
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14060 - 28/04/04 01:16 AM

Well I really like an overunder. I own a Fias 12 gauge that can shoot 3 inch shells. I mostly use it for pheasant hunting but take it out once in a while for some duck or even goose hunting.

I have only shot two side by sides. I did like the one dont know what kind it was. But the other I did not care for one bit. It was a very very expensive shotgun that my dads buddy had just bought and he let me shoot it. It was a 2 1/2 inch English gun that some Duke supposedly owned. Anyway I thought the forarm was way too small for me, I felt like it was a toy gun and that small forarm really distracted me from shooting.

Anyway I mostly shoot semi-auto, pumps, and over/unders and like those more probably because of the singe barrel sight plain but I would still love to get a 12 gauge s/s I am looking at a Rugar or something like that not too expensive but not a cheep gun either.

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shrike
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #16853 - 18/07/04 07:31 AM

I started shotgunning with a pump M12 then 870 then the auto's Browning, Beretta Rem 10, Then the o/u Superposed, Beretta 682, Citory. Incidently I tried a field gun SxS AyA and shot a round of skeet with it on insistence of what I thought at the time was an enoying and pushy aquaintance.
I did not just shoot a round of skeet, I dead centred 24 of them, jerking in front of low house 8 and missing it cleanly, shucks. I fired the first few rounds single shot, then put the double trigger in play at the regular doubles.I was amazed about the pointability, meaning the feeling that the gun was an extension of my left pointing hand. The double trigger was something that took a dozen or so rounds to get acustomed to.
Since then I aquired my own little collection of side by sides, mostly spanish and Italian better then standard grade field guns marketed for relative little money because the barrels do not handle steel. I never was fond of the models stocked to shoot high for rising birds. I want the "shoot where you point" stocking, with minute face pressure. My sporting clays/skeet/life birds score went up drastically.
I now mount the gun, holding the barrels vs the splinter fore-end with my left hand, standing straight up(as opposed to crouching and crunching the face on the stock.) and bring the comb to my cheeck with very light face pressure then firing at that time.
Going back and forth once a while to my auto's/ o/u brings home the message that for me the SxS field model with the right drop/pitch/pull is the way to go.
Could I achieve the same results with the o/u if stocked just right? May be may be not. I have now 4 SxS, shoot each one very well and better then my Beretta, Super posed or auto loaders. Its personal I guess. I like the feel and balance of the barrels in my hand, the slim grips.
However for a real dirty waterfowl hunt I will still grab my Auto.

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iqbal
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: shrike]
      #16874 - 19/07/04 07:12 AM

Shrike,as you said its personal,however in American skeet you mount the gun before the bird(clay)is released whereas in international or olympic skeet the gun is held at the hip and is mounted only after the bird has been released.This split second makes all the difference,if the gun does not come to the shoulder properly or a bit late you miss the target.Also with the O/U you have a slight advantage in locating the bird after you have mounted the gun as compared to the S/S.That's probably the reason why all skeet champions use O/U in this sport.

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jgttechjunkie
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #19433 - 26/09/04 09:55 AM

I don't understand this snobbishness thing. Maybe because I am over 50. Perhaps when I was a teenager it would be different. We all have seen people show up on hunts with fabulously expensive shotguns, only to be easily outshot by some yokel with a beat up club. Who cares? The people I hunt with are constantly teasing about equipment. Show up with a new expensive shotgun and they will say you obviously need it to improve your poor shooting skills. Show up with a beater and they discuss whether they want to admit you are with them on the hunt. If someone seriously puts down your equipment then no matter where you are they are being rude and lack class.

I have always hunted with SxSs. Then I bought an OU, but I didn't like it and sold it. (I am one of those people who have very expensive shotguns but am a very ordinary shooter.)

What I thought was that a lightweight quick shooting English style SxS with a splinter forearm was a joy to handle, but once you put pistol grips and a large beavertail forearm I think they lost much of their charm.
My theory was that for heavy hitting, i.e. long target sessions, pass shooting or for a heavy duck and goose gun, the OU would be better, because you could have a hefty forearm that didn't detract from the handling (or looks), and your fingers were far from the sight plane. And then there was the view of more of the bird that another poster has mentioned.

Once I got the OU though I found I didn't like the extra gape, which was particularly awkward in a duck blind or lying down in a coffin box for a goose shoot. (Pumps and autoloaders work best in those circumstances, they are easier to load while they are pointed at the sky.) OUs built very light with "English" style stocks without pistol grips and small forearms are particularly ugly to me.

In spite of the fact I do not now own an OU, I still might try one again. So my choice would be SxS for lightweight field guns for upland game in which you plan to do a lot of walking, OUs for heavier guns that you will use for target shooting or pass shooting, and inexpensive pumps or autoloaders for geese and ducks from blinds.

The main problem with the pumps and autoloaders is that they litter empty shells all over the countryside and if you are shooting ducks over water it is a chore to find them all.

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jgttechjunkie
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #19444 - 26/09/04 12:53 PM

To elaborate further on my earlier post: If someone asked me whether my 'different' shotgun was safe to shoot, I would answer that the small splinters of wood flying off the stock and hitting my face smarted a bit, but I was used to it. If they asked what it was I would respond that it was a primitive weapon, that I enjoyed the handicap of using it because for a person with my advanced shooting skills using the fine equipment the questioner was using was not enough of a challenge.

If you feel awkward in a social setting because of the quality of what you own or wear you need some more mileage (i.e. age and experience) or you need some acting lessons. Money or a higher position will not do it - in fact with either of these factors you might find yourself being one of the people who act particularly superior to former peers.

(I posted this by mistake on another thread.)

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Chasseur
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: Chasseur]
      #19518 - 29/09/04 04:56 AM

As to my earlier comments. I had shot recently at my Sporting Clays course and two times in a row I kept bumping into one of our local instructors who just couldn't let the fact I shot with a SxS go. Every two to three minutes I'd get snide comments, "That's a real gentleman with a Side by side," or "Boy hard to shoot with those double triggers, eh?" "Hard to hit with a SxS because of the two barrels, its like trying to point with two fingers, yuck, yuck," "You're not going to be a good shot if you keep shooting low gun with a SxS," etc, etc. This is from an instructor!!

It really pisses me off. If I want to use a nice old gun, and it makes me happy why should it bother other people? Just about everythime there's an autoloader or O/U poking fun. Imagine if I told them where they can stick their gas beater autocrapper?



--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (30/09/04 04:11 AM)

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luv2safari
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: Chasseur]
      #19614 - 05/10/04 09:52 AM

Chasseur,

Thats 25 for 25, my friend! I shoot better with an o/u...just a bit.... My choice is, and will be, my nice old sxs. It is the same with wine and women...personal choice.

It is nobody's business whether you like jug wine and fat women.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Chasseur
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: luv2safari]
      #19624 - 06/10/04 03:35 AM

Well said Luv2safari!

How did you know I had some Carlo Rossi sangria in the fridge??

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (10/11/04 06:11 AM)

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: iqbal]
      #20638 - 08/11/04 11:18 AM

I bought my first shotgun in 1971, a Stevens with a hardwood stock, side by side, and it fit me perfectly. I still use it today, and it looks like an old war horse: finish is gone, and only a little bit of blueing left. I've had to replace broken firing pins more times than I can remember, but still love it.

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Siskiyous6
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Loc: Del Norte COunty, CA
Re: Overunders vs.Side by sides [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #21124 - 22/11/04 05:45 PM

I bought a 20 guage Fox BSE-e when I was 13. It is still a great gun. I got my son an o/u Ruger in 28G to start. It is wonderful, but it just isn't a S/S. The barrels dont open on their own, it doesn't snap shut in as lively a fashion, et.

When I moved up to a 12G (Steel shot - bah humbug) I started using an 1100. But, I am going to get a Ruger Gold Label. I am also trying to get my hands on a Remington S/S and a Guegot S/S my buddy inherited. Nothing comes to my shoulder like a S/S. The rest may shoot, but only with a S/S are you shooting.

For safety, I don't think any kid should have anything but a double.

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