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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267164 - 30/06/15 06:57 AM

Deeangeo, my rifle has a lift ramp identical to yours and it is exactly at that ramp that the cartridge shoulder catches and the whole thing locks up solid. I will have a look at my Model 1910 tonight and compare the difference. Now before you go altering anything on your rifle let me modify mine first, as mine is an old Greek military model that is pretty corroded and has been dicked with although not at the lift ramp. I got it for next to nothing and therefore it won't matter if I damage mine trying as it is mainly for spares. Give me a few days as I am flat out at work at the moment.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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WWGreener
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267167 - 30/06/15 07:32 AM

As discussed in an earlier thread, I too had problems with Privi ammo jamming the NOSE of the bullet on the ramp. I modified a spare catridge stop to allow the cartridge to rise slightly higher. The bullet nose then contacted the ramp where the angle resulted in improved feeding. You cannot be gentle with the bolt but it does not jam. Just remove metal a little at a time and keep checking the function. I think if the cartridge is higher, it will not contact the sharp edge where you are having trouble

I have a 1952 M-S rifle that allows the rounds to feed much smoother than my 1903. I believe Steyr modified the feeding system after WW II.

Edited by WWGreener (30/06/15 10:33 AM)

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: WWGreener]
      #267185 - 30/06/15 04:01 PM

Quote:

As discussed in an earlier thread, I too had problems with Privi ammo jamming the NOSE of the bullet on the ramp. I modified a spare catridge stop to allow the cartridge to rise slightly higher. The bullet nose then contacted the ramp where the angle resulted in improved feeding. You cannot be gentle with the bolt but it does not jam. Just remove metal a little at a time and keep checking the function. I think if the cartridge is higher, it will not contact the sharp edge where you are having trouble

I have a 1952 M-S rifle that allows the rounds to feed much smoother than my 1903. I believe Steyr modified the feeding system after WW II.



Pretty much exactly the area of conclusion we came to yesterday. I had mentioned earlier in the thread the release tab was worth checking, but was distracted away by the contrasting differences in the side feed ramp.

I have checked together with my engineer the feed ramp yesterday and will continue examining today. Yes, we can make a 'polishing' change to the side feed ramp if necessary. But we conclude this should not be required as we believe the problem really lies with the underside of the cartridge release tab.

It is currently our view the underside of the tab is worn and so fails to hold the rear of the cartridge down enough, therefore not presenting the correct angle of approach of the cartridge case, to the side placed feed ramp, when the bolt is pushed forward.

It looks like max .005" perhaps not even so much can correct the problem...we'll look at how to add the metal in experiment today. Then determine if the problem may be resolved this way. We shall see!
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (30/06/15 04:02 PM)

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267186 - 30/06/15 04:42 PM

Quote:

Deeangeo, my rifle has a lift ramp identical to yours and it is exactly at that ramp that the cartridge shoulder catches and the whole thing locks up solid. I will have a look at my Model 1910 tonight and compare the difference. Now before you go altering anything on your rifle let me modify mine first, as mine is an old Greek military model that is pretty corroded and has been dicked with although not at the lift ramp. I got it for next to nothing and therefore it won't matter if I damage mine trying as it is mainly for spares. Give me a few days as I am flat out at work at the moment. Waidmannsheil.



That's quite a thing Waidmannsheil. Careful how you go though...I'm quite sure you will be.

If you see my previous post, you'll see I'm looking at the release tab being the culprit here.
Don't yet know for sure though, but it's beginning to look that way.

I'm not taking metal off anything until I know exactly.
In fact more to the point I'm going to try in a 'makeshift' way to add some to the release tab when I determine exactly where it should go in order to present the cartridge in a better way.

I shall be checking later today to see if the release tab is actually holding the case down far enough at the rear of the cartridge case. If it is not, the presentation of the case shoulder to that side feed ramp may be incorrect which results in the jam.

I hope I'll be able to confirm or not later today.
Best wishes, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (30/06/15 04:44 PM)

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deeangeo
.300 member


Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267206 - 01/07/15 02:03 AM

Well, having now examined in great detail I cannot see how the release tab is the cause of the problem. I believed we were on to something, but NO.

All I can see at present is exactly where and how the jam occurs but not why it happens.

In the absence of any other material factor being evident it seems I have no option but to polish the feed ramp to the smoothest feed possible.
Truly I hate this idea because something has changed from when the rifle was built to cause this problem, but I simply cannot identify what.

There are some on this forum who have been very helpful and I appreciate that.

Any further thoughts are of course welcome as I have not taken any action yet other than investigation.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267250 - 01/07/15 08:46 PM

Deeangeo, success. I know I said I was busy for the next few days, however I decide to go in at 5.00 AM this morning and have a go at sorting this feeding problem. Immediately upon removing a small amount form that protruding lift ramp the cartridges started to feed, although with considerable force required. However before touching the lift ramp you could not feed at all. I then continued removing small amounts at a time and continually testing, eventually ending up with a lift ramp that looks the same as Iowa's in his picture. It fed really well but I noticed that the lead nose of the bullet was dragging slightly on the feed ramp which was a little rough. I then polished it to a mirror finish and now it feeds five rounds perfectly.
The question still remains though "Why would it not feed now when it obviously did 100 years ago" considering I am using Norma brass and Woodleigh projectiles, in other words top quality components. The only conclusion that I could come to is that the cartridge cases and projectiles must have had subtle differences to today's brass and with most of the records destroyed it is difficult to determine. It is still strange though that the previous owner of your gun said he had no problems feeding, which means he either had a large supply of original ammo, or he never actually used the gun while he had it, or he is bullshitting.
Anyway, if you shape and polish to copy Iowa's rifle you should find it works perfectly.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267275 - 02/07/15 07:06 AM

Excellent stuff Waidmannsheil. I'm so pleased to hear your work at that rediculous hour has paid off.
I have looked again today and cannot see any other way of making the brass function other than how you and one or two others have done. So, today I blagged the Dremmel from the engineers workshop & told the CE he could have it back on Monday.

I'm going to go at it gently to get it right.

As to what has changed..well it's impossible to tell. I also have Norma brass now, brand new and waiting on a number of bits of this project to be completed. I think the dimensions of the brass seem OK, but whether over nearly 100 years the movement of brass has worn the stainless rotor and release tab is something one has to question. Although neither appear worn, perhaps they actually are - enough to make the difference.

I have RWS 159gn round nose factory ammunition, but actually intend my loads to utilise the Hornady SST 140gn or 129gn bullet. I have both here and am simply looking for legal MV & ME to shoot reds in Scotland. I have an appointment with some stags in September & would really like to use this rifle.

I think the previous owner cannot have tried to feed from the magazine and probably just placed rounds in one at a time....or, he is indeed bullshitting.
Anyway, the problem will soon be resolved.

The next project after sorting this issue is to get my S&B 8x56 scope mounted... roll on...
Thanks so much for your input Waidmannsheil and that of all you other chaps, particularly Iowa 303 & jorgen too. Happy hunting all.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (02/07/15 04:24 PM)

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267372 - 04/07/15 10:10 PM

Righty ho! Waidmannsheil, Iowa 303 & Jorgen... I've been working away at the right hand feed ramp & success. Little by little I polished away the offending areas of metal and success.
I can now feed from the rotary magazine five rounds to the chamber successfully.

In truth I think a little more polishing is needed in one specific place. I notice the cartridge body now that it's positioning is a little more forward, there's some very slight 'trapping' between the ramp shoulder and the other side of the action. It is slight though and just a little more should make it perfect.

The photo's Iowa 303 & Jorgen posted/sent me were a great help & Waidmannsheil your success encouraged me on. I think in view of no logical explanation or visible reason why the jamming occurred, one just has to be 'brave' and proceed with caution polishing some metal away until the action does work properly once again.
Best wishes folks.
Cheers deeangeo

Pic of reshaped feed ramp in my MSch M1903


How it was before reshaping


Edited by deeangeo (05/07/15 05:43 PM)

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Iowa_303s
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267526 - 07/07/15 10:19 AM

Glad to hear your rifle is working properly!

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #267741 - 11/07/15 08:58 AM

Deeangeo, good to see that you have sorted the problem. You can make the action feed even smoother by mirror polishing all the surfaces which the cartridge contacts against when sliding forward. I have done this many times before on other rifles and the difference is quite significant.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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deeangeo
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Loc: United Kingdom
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267775 - 11/07/15 06:56 PM

Quote:

Deeangeo, good to see that you have sorted the problem. You can make the action feed even smoother by mirror polishing all the surfaces which the cartridge contacts against when sliding forward. I have done this many times before on other rifles and the difference is quite significant. Waidmannsheil.



Indeed that's the next & final job with the feed issue Waidmannsheil. I should be doing so today...but the really fine polishing stones I ordered haven't yet arrived...so, next w/ends work I think.
Time enough....
I've just discovered a scoping issue I now need to sort out...but that's a different thread.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #268085 - 15/07/15 04:33 PM

Some plausible info. came my way and was re-sparked by an email I received from the previous owner of the MSch rifle I have.
His email tells me 'he doesn't actually remember firing the rifle' it was to be a project for restoration..but when he got the rifle home, thought it 'too nice to meddle with'.

RigbyMauser's comment -Quote-:'All Mannlicher Schönauers at that time they were made were litterately a handfitted gun. I suspect from your description some former owner had lost the original Rotary steel magazine and had it replaced with another one. However they hadn´t done what you did. Used the time to grind angles on the feedingramp so the cartridge could cycle perfectly.
So to your Question. No..a rifle from Ferdinans shop would never had left without a Meister Büchsenmacher prüfung. Nie!' ....and my thoughts the rifle wouldn't have left the factory unable to function correctly led me down a slightly different path, particularly after I'd seen photo's of later rifles with a different feed ramp profile..similar to the form I re-shaped mine into.

I now think the rotary magazines that we know are 'cartridge specific' were machined with different shoulder ramps on the magazine rotor blades themselves and so, if too shallow, as on later magazine rotors, would be unable to raise the feeding cartridge high enough to access the older style of feed ramp.

So it seems possible a magazine switch either knowingly or unknowingly by unknowledgeable staff at a dealership, could easily result in this problem which would not be apparent - until feeding rounds from the magazine using the bolt.
This would occur leaving absolutely no evidence of wear or other possible reason for the malfunction.

Just my thoughts from all the information I have available.
Cheers, deeangeo

Edited by deeangeo (15/07/15 04:58 PM)

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #268277 - 21/07/15 06:36 AM

Images kindly sent to me by a friend.. don't you just love the jewel like intricacy of these magazines. So beautifully put together... and each very specific to their cartridges..even varying by year of manufacture.
Just wonderful - until someone switches them from their original rifle.





--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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GPJ12345
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Loc: South Africa
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #268366 - 23/07/15 04:53 AM

And this is how a magazine filled with .458 Mannlicher Schonauer rounds look like...and feeds flawlessly...

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kuduae
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #268374 - 23/07/15 06:22 AM

Quote:

Images kindly sent to me by a friend.. don't you just love the jewel like intricacy of these magazines. So beautifully put together... and each very specific to their cartridges..even varying by year of manufacture.
Just wonderful - until someone switches them from their original rifle.







As the photos were taken by me, some explanation, top left to right:
M1903 in 6.5x54 M-Sch, M1910 in 9.5x57 M-Sch, M1924 in .30-06, M1925 in 8x60S, GK "Magnum", 1968, in 6.5x68. These magazines are not interchangable. even the 1910 one does not fit into a 1903, as it is wider.
Bottom photo: Not the intricate machining of the M1903 follower and it's spring assembly.

The .458 Magazine with it's double cartridge guide ring is very interesting too. Never seen such a thing.

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: kuduae]
      #268379 - 23/07/15 07:41 AM

Thankyou Kuduae for the explanations & hoping you didn't mind me posting the photos which I view as extremely informative. I think the variations of cartridge/cal. types of the shoulders in the rotors really fantastic and have always been impressed with the fine engineering associated with MSch rifles.

For a while I thought I had a problem with the rotor spring..I took it to pieces to check it out. Clearly that was a red herring and there's nothing wrong in there at all.

Then I believed the release tab was the culprit...another incorrect assessment.
Finally the magazine itself, but no faults could be found there other than the shoulder ramps appeared to be for a different 'sideramp' feed. Which Iowa303 confirmed.
So, my magazine comes from a different rifle with a different sideramp in the action.
Anyway, feed issue resolved now thanks to info from those on this forum.

But, - That .458 definitely looks 'chunky' and in a nice way.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (23/07/15 05:01 PM)

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