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From: Honey badger (Original Message) Sent: 11/18/2002 5:23 PM
Picture this: You are soon to depart on an extended safari in southern Africa. The country to be hunted includes open veld and close bush and the quarry includes the big five and plains game. Cost is little object, but you are limited to a maximum of three guns. What would your ideal battery be?

To kick off, mine would be:

.318 Westley Richards magazine rifle with detachable variable power scope.
.375 H&H magazine rifle with low power scope.
.500 Nitro Express double rifle with open sights.

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Recommend Delete Message 6 of 20 in Discussion

From: Nitro Sent: 11/23/2002 1:15 PM
Honey Badger

The .375 H&H Mag. Only need one. What do you want all these superfluous toys for ? ..........

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Recommend Delete Message 7 of 20 in Discussion

From: Honey badger Sent: 11/23/2002 8:45 PM
Not a bad point. You could then fill those empty gun cases with beer and
whiskey. hmm...

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Recommend Delete Message 8 of 20 in Discussion

From: Nitro Sent: 11/24/2002 3:04 PM
Actually H-B I was just kidding you, but there is no reason why a 375 alone isn't a perfect choice.

My ideal battery is similar to yours:

a 500/465 Double (or a 450 NE, 470, 500 etc) - express sights with wide V;
a 375 H&H M98 Bolt action with a QD 1 1/2-6x Leupold with post cross bars;

& if I could fit a third firearm in it would be a toss-up between a

drilling 16g double or 12 g double with a 375 H&H barrel underneath OR
a flat shooting bolt action in 300 H&H, 8x68S or 338 Win Mag. Perhaps the 375 is a takedown with a second barrel in 300 H&H, that way I could carry FOUR calibres (five including the shottie) and probably about 100kgs excess baggage weight!

The shottie could be used on all those lovely guinea fowl, francolin, doves etc. Plus bushpig, duiker, grysbok, klipies etc etc.

I've just been reading the latest Hatari Times magazine and Harold Wolf the publisher mentioned an old time German hunter used three firearms, a 500 double (I think), a 375 Bolt action and one of those Luftwaffe Drillings in 12g/12g/9.3x74R. That makes a lot of sense having something like a drilling along. Except I would try to have the same calibre in the rifle as the drilling so additional ammo isn't required.

The double would mainly be for nostalgia but great for the big ones if I ever get to hunt them or for close cover.

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Recommend Delete Message 9 of 20 in Discussion

From: Nitro Sent: 11/24/2002 3:25 PM
H-B

I think the choice of a .318 is a great one too. Interesting to see so many people here like that round. Any chance of a come back??

The calibres in 8mm (.323), .318 (is this a .330??), .333 and .338 have to be the most versatile rounds to use anywhere in the world. I think for the one gun hunter one of these (if not the .375 of course) is a fantastic choice for any thin skinned game and maybe the dangerous game as well if pushed.

I remember reading the .318 was very popular earlier in the 20th century. I wonder what killed it off?

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Recommend Delete Message 10 of 20 in Discussion

From: Nitro Sent: 11/24/2002 3:33 PM
PS

H-B

"cost is little object"

Can I hunt with you sometime. I can carry your spare rifle.

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Recommend Delete Message 11 of 20 in Discussion

From: Honey badger Sent: 11/24/2002 9:27 PM
Nitro,

Yes, .318 is actually .330" calibre, but I think the marketing boys at Westley Richards back in 1910 thought .318 sounded better. My best guess at the reasons for its demise are:

a. It was a victim of its own success. It gained such a good reputation in its early days that people started using it against game that it was never intended for. Inevitably, when Colonel Cartarse type characters carrying .318s started getting stomped by pachyderms, it began, unfairly, to lose its name.

b. Ammunition availability. Kynoch stopped making the ammo in the early 60s. For most PHs and average hunters, it just made more logistic and financial sense to carry a .30-06, .300 H&H or .338 etc - something they could readily get the ammo for and that they could afford to feed.

A drilling would be perfect, I think, and a shotgun makes a lot of sense. I think I'll need that gunbearer. As for cost being little object - that's in the ideal world. In the real world, cost is every object!. However, you're still welcome to be my gunbearer, as long as you don't mind being paid in guinea fowl.

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Recommend Delete Message 12 of 20 in Discussion

From: Safari-Hunt Sent: 11/25/2002 9:15 PM
Badger,

If I could only choose one it would be a 375 H&H But I must add I will also need a realoding bench to go with it That 300 grain bullet is not going to suit all hunting especially when it comes to long range shooting.

I made my 375 more versatille with loads using a 210 grain bullet to 350 grain still testing the 350's though.

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Recommend Delete Message 13 of 20 in Discussion

From: safari Sent: 11/26/2002 9:53 PM
Being still on schedule for 2 weeks of safari in Zimbabwe next June, perhaps I should give some rationale for my 2 gun battery. For the heavy stuff I am using a Ruger M77 Magnum in .416 Rigby. Why?, because it is relatively affordable, and it is in one of the grand old African calibers. I can load for it, and I have worked up 400gr. Swift A Frame bullets at 2350-2400FPS. This virtually duplicates the origional loads for it. With 5100 ft. lbs at the muzzle and 1-1 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards, I feel fully confident that if I place the shot correctly it work very well. Also, I can handle the recoil with no problems. For other game, Zebra, Kudu, etc, I am using a Weatherby Accumark in .300 Wby. I am using Weatherby factory ammo with a 200gr Nosler Partition. I chronographed the ammo and it goes out at 2900fps. That should be perfect for plains game. I have other rifles, a .308, a .338 Win, and a .30-06, but I think the Weatherby offers the perfect balance between power and carrying ability. Also in the USA we are limited to 5 kilograms of ammo on the plane, and the 338 puts me over the weight limit.

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Recommend Delete Message 14 of 20 in Discussion

From: 500NE Sent: 11/28/2002 11:10 PM
Hi HB,

This is obviously a discussion that has been raging for decades (if not centuries), but let's do it once again...!

My personal choice - again, if money would not be the object - would be as follows:

1) .500 Nitro Express double rifle with open sights.
Nothing to add to this one (you even guessed my favorite caliber right...)
In terms of open sights I'd also like to see a deep V with a big, pop-up front sight for low(er)-light conditions.
Obviously the ideal tool for close-range work, especially on elephant or follow-up on mbongo.
(My personal favorite on the "wish list" is the Krieghoff Classic Big Five, since I very much like the concept allowing me to carry the double loaded but uncocked...)

2) .416 Rigby bolt action (M98) with low-power scope w/ long eye relief
My ideal buffalo gun, powerfull enough, even for "tembo", and versatile enough (w/ 350gr bullets) for most plains game up to (and beyond) 200 meters.
In my opinion the much better choice than the 375H&H!
(I'm using a customized Ruger M77 w/ a leupold 1,5-5x mounted for that job)

#3 is a difficult choice, it would very much depend on where and what I intend to hunt!

If lepard is on the wish-list and/or extremely open veld conditions are to be expected I would opt for one of the .300's (Win/Wby/Ultra) with a powerful (10x +) and (for lepard) very light-gathering (= 56mm) european scope.
(e.g. Swarovski's 2,5-10x56 or Zeiss's 3-12x56, preferable with a illuminated reticle).

Other than that, I would have a very hard time choosing between:
- a flat-shooting .243 or similar for very small antilopes, schakals or similar
- a shotgun for some relaxed bird shooting

Looking fwd to any comment on my personal selection!

Rgds,
500NE

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Recommend Delete Message 15 of 20 in Discussion

From: 500NE Sent: 11/28/2002 11:17 PM
Hi Safari-Hunt,

I'm very curious about the reasons for your selection.
Why bring two very similar guns - the .318 and the .338?

What could the one do that the other one wouldn't?

Rgds,
500NE

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Recommend Delete Message 16 of 20 in Discussion

From: 500NE Sent: 11/28/2002 11:26 PM
Hi Nitro,

Q: I remember reading the .318 was very popular earlier in the 20th century. I wonder what killed it off?

I think there where to reasons for that:

1) It was *mostly* used in english rifles (i.e. from UK gunsmiths) and nobody else.
2) Kynoch stopped producing ammo for it early seventhies.

Nothing wrong with that caliber as such, but not so great performace either, everybody using a 300WM with 220grs bullets (or a 338WM w/ 250grs) gets similar (338WM: better ?) performance without the logistics (i.e. aquiring ammo) hassle.
So why bother, except for (very understandable ) nostalgic reasons...?

Rgds,
500NE

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Recommend Delete Message 17 of 20 in Discussion

From: Safari-Hunt Sent: 11/29/2002 1:18 AM
500NE,

The 318 was built to use the 250 grain bullet and has proved itself with it. I just like it as a classic and I would rather use it in the bush with the lower velocities than the 338. Maybe I should rather have said 200 grain bullets used in the 338 than 250 grainers.

I really think the 338 is more of a longer range caliber than the 318.

250 grain Muzzle Velocity 2400 fps. Energy 3200 ft/lbs. BL 24" Ideal bushveld velocity

While the 338 pushes the 250 grainer to 2700 fps and the 200 grainer at 3000 fps.

I just love moderate/slow heavy rounds that is why I also choose the 404 and not the 416 Rigby I don't see any diffrence when hunting with them. If I was to get a stopper that would have been a different choice.

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Recommend Delete Message 18 of 20 in Discussion

From: Westley Richards Sent: 12/13/2002 1:52 AM
To 500. Nitro;
Carefull with the Krieghoff old boy. The barrel blueing salts flow when the shooting gets hot and heavy. From personal experience
Westley Richards

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Recommend Delete Message 19 of 20 in Discussion

From: Honey badger Sent: 12/13/2002 5:51 AM
WR,

Being a fan of the British Nitro Expresses, I would naturally not be caught dead with a German rifle - but we all know that that's just snobbery and nostalgia on my part.. Tell us about your experience with Krieghoffs. Any good or not? Why?

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Recommend Delete Message 20 of 20 in Discussion

From: Westley Richards Sent: 12/13/2002 8:43 AM
HB

Actually quite pleased with Krieghoff. The blueing problem was repaired ( my friends Krieghoff .470 Nitro did the same thing) and I had them put on a night sight bead for me. I love to shoot this .500, but certainly could be a lot more accurate after a few rounds (flinch). So I am trying to work up some lighter loads on the bench.
WR

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