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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem!
#266820 - 22/06/15 05:07 PM

Shooting my MSch M1903 for the first time...a problem occurred. Although the bolt action is as slick as it should be, the feed of rounds from the rotary mag into the breech is very poor and certainly not smooth, requiring some force and visibly incorrect presentation of the round to the chamber.
Once aligned correctly the rounds chamber smoothly.

The alignment of the cartridge picked from the magazine by the bolt seems wrong though (Not quite high enough) and I cannot see what the problem is...other than perhaps the cartridge lock plate on the right of the breech (spring loaded for releasing cartridges from the magazine) being a restricting factor...but I don't know as it doesn't seem to have been interfered with.

The 'jamming' for want of a better term seems to be at the front of the bullet. Where the nose faces the 'ramp' lifting it into the chamber; but the ramp looks smooth and not interfered with either.
In fact the whole area appears to be correct....but something isn't right! - Photo's show exactly where the jamming resistance starts.

Thoughts from anyone?
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#266822 - 22/06/15 05:59 PM

What is the overall cartridge length of the ammo you are using ? best

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casper50
.400 member

Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1364
Loc: Alaska

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#266827 - 22/06/15 07:49 PM

does both the round nose and spitzer bullets jam? I don't think the rifle was set up for spitzers.

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1641
Loc: Finland

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: casper50]
#266828 - 22/06/15 08:11 PM

I just tested my pre-WWII 6,5x57 magazine and it seems to work flawlessly even with S&B blypoint ammos. Those bullets are quite sharp. It´s true that you should be quite careful when loading ammos to magazine. All of them should assembled as back as they would go.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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GG375
.333 member

Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
#266829 - 22/06/15 09:29 PM

It could be the wrong spindle in the mag. Is the dished section where the case neck sits, the same diameter as the neck or a larger radius? For eg you might actually have a 8 Or even a 9.5 spindle in that may.

Cheers

GG

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: GG375]
#266845 - 23/06/15 03:12 AM

Thanks for your thought fellas. Both round nose & pointed spitzer should feed smoothly. They have done on other M1903 MSch rifles I've had in the past & this should be no exception.
Both types of rounds jam in the same place.

As I can find no other flaw, I'm coming to the conclusion the spring tension in the rotary mag. is not perhaps what it once was. I think this because the cartridge release spring seems normal and the round (Cartridge) seems unable to push over the restraining tab as the bolt face is moved forward.

I shall probably have to strip the spring in the rotary mag & try to either fix or obtain a replacement.
I cannot see any other material factor that may any relevance in lifting the case from the magazine.

The OAL of the cartridges is: 140gn spitzer 3.063" & 159gn RWS factory round nose: 2.974"
Cheers.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (23/06/15 06:33 AM)

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#266846 - 23/06/15 03:27 AM

OAL seems OK, in mine anything less than 2.9" or more than 3.04" it will jam, regardless of spitzer or RN. If you find a source for mag springs please let me know as I would like a spare for my 6.5 x 54 which is getting a little soft, best

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#266989 - 26/06/15 07:34 AM

OK, so I now know for sure it's not the spring tension in the rotary mag. that's the problem. The tension & spring are just fine.

The jamming occurs right at the case lower shoulder - exactly on the edge of the shoulder/main cartridge case body.
As the bolt pushes the cartridge forward just to right there's a small 'lip' that should deflect the cartridge upward... it doesn't & so the case jams right at that point.

What to do about it???? - things that make you go 'Hmmmm'!
Maybe I'll try gently polishing it with a Dremmel - but before I do - I'll think some more.
ATB, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1641
Loc: Finland

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267009 - 26/06/15 03:38 PM

Try to find someone near you who has similar rifle with same caliber so you could compare feeding and action details.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
#267010 - 26/06/15 04:32 PM

I wish it were so easy Igorrock. These rifles are so out of fashion, finding an owner with one is a challenge - let alone one near me.

Even dealers don't have them on their shelves....the nearest ones to me I know of are all 200 miles away..& I know of four in total, two are 'Takedown' M1903 models, one an 8x56 M1908 rifle and the other a 1910 stutzen/carbine.

Finding a real gunsmith, properly skillful with old fashioned experience is also difficult. There are lots who are fine with simple work on modern rifles and flinch when an MSch is put in front of them. They're not in my view real engineers or gunsmiths.

The first image shows damage where the cartridge is jamming against the leading edge of the 'raising lip' at the lower right side of the magazine chamber.

The second shows the actual 'raising lip' on the right, to the front of the cartridge release tab.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1641
Loc: Finland

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267015 - 26/06/15 07:03 PM

So it seems that someone has bubbad yours action when drying to make it feed some another ammo....? Does action and barrel have same old serial numbers ? Or is this magazine rotor originally really for 6,5x54 MS ?

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2393
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
#267016 - 26/06/15 09:28 PM

Deeangeo, I have a Greek 1903 action only which has identically the same feeding problem even with brand new brass and the correct 160 grain round nose soft nose bullets. The case hits that lip and jams up solid. The action has been dicked with by someone else before me and I have to sit down and work out why this is happening. I have a model 1910 in 9.5 x 57 MS which feeds perfectly with round nose bullets as well as pointed soft points, but I can not get that 1903 to feed regardless of the bullet seating depth. If I get a chance I will try to sort it out and let you know.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267031 - 27/06/15 03:39 AM

Yes guys, the serial numbers all match - including the number in the wood stock. I have no reason to believe anything has been messed around with. Close inspection reveals that in my case, we're talking about only 2 or 3 thou of an inch to free it up....but where that's taken from has to be very carefully thought out.

It may be possible to remove .001" at a time from the cartridge release tab, or it may be polished off the leading edge of the side ramp feeder.
I'm just not sure yet which approach to take....but I believe I'm getting there.

Trouble is, once metal is removed, it cannot be put back. So, I have to get this dead right!
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1641
Loc: Finland

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267034 - 27/06/15 06:02 AM

If it´s true that anything hasn´t been messed with yours rifle there isn´t any good reason for you to do that by youself. I just checked my on rifles magazine and couldn´t find any serial number from it so there is possibility that yours one isn´t original.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2393
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
#267036 - 27/06/15 06:38 AM

The Question has to be asked though, "Why are there feeding problems now when there were no feeding problems when the gun left the factory". You have to really spend some time trying to feed and watching very closely what happens to try and establish why the cases are sticking. Don't remove any material until you are sure that what you are doing will actually make a difference.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Iowa_303s
.400 member

Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267038 - 27/06/15 07:37 AM

deeangeo,
I can post a photo of the action of my MS1903 magazine and feed ramp if you think it would help.
It feeds my handloads using 160 grain round nose soft points without problem.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

Edited by Iowa_303 (27/06/15 07:43 AM)

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
#267050 - 27/06/15 06:40 PM

I agree I have no way of knowing if the magazine is the original one (as mentioned, there are no serial numbers on the mag.) also, that the rifle most certainly would not have left the factory with this problem.

The gap between the leading edge of the feed lip and rotor on the magazine is so small there's no chance of the case 'wedging' it's a direct lower shoulder contact with the leading edge of the lip and if forced the pictured damage to the cartridge case occurs.

I have a feeling it's not the feed lip that's the problem now. I think the release tab resting on the top side of the case doesn't allow the bullet and front shoulder to lift quite high enough as the cartridge is fed forward.
Not much lift is required, but just a tiny amount more would I think??? resolve the difficulty.

I'm about to strip the release tab out of the receiver to examine further.
We shall see!

IOWA 303 that's kind of you & I'd appreciate a look if you can post pic.
Cheers, deeangeo

PS. I have stripped out the release tab and examined - it seems OK and the spring assuming orginal has plenty of tension...maybe if not original, too much tension?? It's a tight little spring. The grub screw retaining bolt for the tab are fine and were easily removed and replaced.
Hmmmm..

I just e-mailed the previous owner to ask if he'd had this feed problem, also, if the magazine had been replaced while in his ownership (he'd owned the rifle for the past 18 years)

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (27/06/15 08:05 PM)

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Jorgen
.224 member

Reged: 16/09/13
Posts: 12
Loc: Denmark

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267051 - 27/06/15 07:55 PM

You have PM from Denmark. JC

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267054 - 27/06/15 08:13 PM

Quote:

Deeangeo, I have a Greek 1903 action only which has identically the same feeding problem even with brand new brass and the correct 160 grain round nose soft nose bullets. The case hits that lip and jams up solid.
The action has been dicked with by someone else before me and I have to sit down and work out why this is happening. I have a model 1910 in 9.5 x 57 MS which feeds perfectly with round nose bullets as well as pointed soft points, but I can not get that 1903 to feed regardless of the bullet seating depth. If I get a chance I will try to sort it out and let you know. Waidmannsheil.

It's interesting we both have this same problem on the M1903.
Apart from exactly where the cartridge jams against the edge of the RH lower feed ramp, it's certainly not obvious what the actual cause of the problem is.

One thing for sure, I absolutely cannot see that the action/receiver has been 'messed about with' & I cannot know if the mag. is original or a replacement.
I do know it is the 'correct' 6.5x54 rotary mag.

I'll post further as I progress with this.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (27/06/15 08:14 PM)

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Iowa_303s
.400 member

Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267057 - 27/06/15 09:50 PM

deeangeo,
I will take and post photos this afternoon.
Currently on my way to a rifle match.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Iowa_303s
.400 member

Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
#267072 - 28/06/15 04:19 AM

deeangeo,
I hope this helps.
If you want a different view just let me know.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
#267073 - 28/06/15 04:50 AM

Thanks Iowa 303. Your feed ramp certainly looks very different from mine. If you check out my pic of the same ramp against your, it can clearly be seen what the difference is.
Mine has a very definite 'cut in' while yours is a smooth flowing base line.

I much appreciate your help in seeing this difference.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267076 - 28/06/15 07:13 AM

I'd be interested to know Iowa 303 - what is the year of manufacture of your MSch M1903?
Here's a direct comparison: Your mag. & my mag.

Iowa 303 M1903 rotary magazine... a clearly smooth flowing lift ramp

This is my M1903 rotary magazine... a not so smoothly machined lift ramp

I'm guessing here's where I need to sort the problem out - the lift ramp.
Waidmannshiel I'd be interested to see a photo of your M1903 lift ramp...can you do please?
Cheers, deeangeo

Edited by deeangeo (28/06/15 07:18 AM)

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Iowa_303s
.400 member

Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267089 - 28/06/15 01:48 PM

deeangeo,
If I understand the MSch date code system correctly, mine was the 535 carbine made in 1934.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
#267093 - 28/06/15 04:24 PM

The barrel usually has the Austrian proof mark stamped:
A number followed by a 'point' and another number as shown in the pic. in my case '1779.22'
.22 being the year of proof - 1922

The serial numbers are pretty irrelevant as all records were destroyed when the factory was bombed during WW2, so there's no 'paperchain' to determine year of manufacture.

I contacted the chap I bought my rifle from..he says he had no such feed problems. He had however placed the rifle with a gunshop in Edinburgh, Scotland to sell. The rifle had been in their store for quite some time, indeed, that's where I collected the rifle from after agreeing the deal.
So I'm now highly suspicious they may have swapped the magazine. Of course I have no way of knowing and the magazine is a correct one for 6.5x54MSch. but I now have to appreciate, ... possibly not the original one for my rifle!
The important factor however is this: The feed ramp is machined into the action/receiver - separate from the magazine - so in theory, any magazine original or not should work?

There was no way to test the rifle before buying as no ammunition or even empty brass was available. Indeed having bought the rifle in March this year...only ten days ago did I acquire ammunition, brass and dies for it. Hey ho!
Many thanks to all for your input. I'll post further when I resolve this issue.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (28/06/15 04:35 PM)

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2393
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267164 - 30/06/15 06:57 AM

Deeangeo, my rifle has a lift ramp identical to yours and it is exactly at that ramp that the cartridge shoulder catches and the whole thing locks up solid. I will have a look at my Model 1910 tonight and compare the difference. Now before you go altering anything on your rifle let me modify mine first, as mine is an old Greek military model that is pretty corroded and has been dicked with although not at the lift ramp. I got it for next to nothing and therefore it won't matter if I damage mine trying as it is mainly for spares. Give me a few days as I am flat out at work at the moment.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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WWGreener
.224 member

Reged: 20/09/14
Posts: 24
Loc: Maryland, USA

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267167 - 30/06/15 07:32 AM

As discussed in an earlier thread, I too had problems with Privi ammo jamming the NOSE of the bullet on the ramp. I modified a spare catridge stop to allow the cartridge to rise slightly higher. The bullet nose then contacted the ramp where the angle resulted in improved feeding. You cannot be gentle with the bolt but it does not jam. Just remove metal a little at a time and keep checking the function. I think if the cartridge is higher, it will not contact the sharp edge where you are having trouble

I have a 1952 M-S rifle that allows the rounds to feed much smoother than my 1903. I believe Steyr modified the feeding system after WW II.

Edited by WWGreener (30/06/15 10:33 AM)

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: WWGreener]
#267185 - 30/06/15 04:01 PM

Quote:

As discussed in an earlier thread, I too had problems with Privi ammo jamming the NOSE of the bullet on the ramp. I modified a spare catridge stop to allow the cartridge to rise slightly higher. The bullet nose then contacted the ramp where the angle resulted in improved feeding. You cannot be gentle with the bolt but it does not jam. Just remove metal a little at a time and keep checking the function. I think if the cartridge is higher, it will not contact the sharp edge where you are having trouble

I have a 1952 M-S rifle that allows the rounds to feed much smoother than my 1903. I believe Steyr modified the feeding system after WW II.

Pretty much exactly the area of conclusion we came to yesterday. I had mentioned earlier in the thread the release tab was worth checking, but was distracted away by the contrasting differences in the side feed ramp.

I have checked together with my engineer the feed ramp yesterday and will continue examining today. Yes, we can make a 'polishing' change to the side feed ramp if necessary. But we conclude this should not be required as we believe the problem really lies with the underside of the cartridge release tab.

It is currently our view the underside of the tab is worn and so fails to hold the rear of the cartridge down enough, therefore not presenting the correct angle of approach of the cartridge case, to the side placed feed ramp, when the bolt is pushed forward.

It looks like max .005" perhaps not even so much can correct the problem...we'll look at how to add the metal in experiment today. Then determine if the problem may be resolved this way. We shall see!
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (30/06/15 04:02 PM)

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267186 - 30/06/15 04:42 PM

Quote:

Deeangeo, my rifle has a lift ramp identical to yours and it is exactly at that ramp that the cartridge shoulder catches and the whole thing locks up solid. I will have a look at my Model 1910 tonight and compare the difference. Now before you go altering anything on your rifle let me modify mine first, as mine is an old Greek military model that is pretty corroded and has been dicked with although not at the lift ramp. I got it for next to nothing and therefore it won't matter if I damage mine trying as it is mainly for spares. Give me a few days as I am flat out at work at the moment. Waidmannsheil.

That's quite a thing Waidmannsheil. Careful how you go though...I'm quite sure you will be.

If you see my previous post, you'll see I'm looking at the release tab being the culprit here.
Don't yet know for sure though, but it's beginning to look that way.

I'm not taking metal off anything until I know exactly.
In fact more to the point I'm going to try in a 'makeshift' way to add some to the release tab when I determine exactly where it should go in order to present the cartridge in a better way.

I shall be checking later today to see if the release tab is actually holding the case down far enough at the rear of the cartridge case. If it is not, the presentation of the case shoulder to that side feed ramp may be incorrect which results in the jam.

I hope I'll be able to confirm or not later today.
Best wishes, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (30/06/15 04:44 PM)

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267206 - 01/07/15 02:03 AM

Well, having now examined in great detail I cannot see how the release tab is the cause of the problem. I believed we were on to something, but NO.

All I can see at present is exactly where and how the jam occurs but not why it happens.

In the absence of any other material factor being evident it seems I have no option but to polish the feed ramp to the smoothest feed possible.
Truly I hate this idea because something has changed from when the rifle was built to cause this problem, but I simply cannot identify what.

There are some on this forum who have been very helpful and I appreciate that.

Any further thoughts are of course welcome as I have not taken any action yet other than investigation.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2393
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267250 - 01/07/15 08:46 PM

Deeangeo, success. I know I said I was busy for the next few days, however I decide to go in at 5.00 AM this morning and have a go at sorting this feeding problem. Immediately upon removing a small amount form that protruding lift ramp the cartridges started to feed, although with considerable force required. However before touching the lift ramp you could not feed at all. I then continued removing small amounts at a time and continually testing, eventually ending up with a lift ramp that looks the same as Iowa's in his picture. It fed really well but I noticed that the lead nose of the bullet was dragging slightly on the feed ramp which was a little rough. I then polished it to a mirror finish and now it feeds five rounds perfectly.
The question still remains though "Why would it not feed now when it obviously did 100 years ago" considering I am using Norma brass and Woodleigh projectiles, in other words top quality components. The only conclusion that I could come to is that the cartridge cases and projectiles must have had subtle differences to today's brass and with most of the records destroyed it is difficult to determine. It is still strange though that the previous owner of your gun said he had no problems feeding, which means he either had a large supply of original ammo, or he never actually used the gun while he had it, or he is bullshitting.
Anyway, if you shape and polish to copy Iowa's rifle you should find it works perfectly.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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deeangeo
.300 member

Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267275 - 02/07/15 07:06 AM

Excellent stuff Waidmannsheil. I'm so pleased to hear your work at that rediculous hour has paid off.
I have looked again today and cannot see any other way of making the brass function other than how you and one or two others have done. So, today I blagged the Dremmel from the engineers workshop & told the CE he could have it back on Monday.

I'm going to go at it gently to get it right.

As to what has changed..well it's impossible to tell. I also have Norma brass now, brand new and waiting on a number of bits of this project to be completed. I think the dimensions of the brass seem OK, but whether over nearly 100 years the movement of brass has worn the stainless rotor and release tab is something one has to question. Although neither appear worn, perhaps they actually are - enough to make the difference.

I have RWS 159gn round nose factory ammunition, but actually intend my loads to utilise the Hornady SST 140gn or 129gn bullet. I have both here and am simply looking for legal MV & ME to shoot reds in Scotland. I have an appointment with some stags in September & would really like to use this rifle.

I think the previous owner cannot have tried to feed from the magazine and probably just placed rounds in one at a time....or, he is indeed bullshitting.
Anyway, the problem will soon be resolved.

The next project after sorting this issue is to get my S&B 8x56 scope mounted... roll on...
Thanks so much for your input Waidmannsheil and that of all you other chaps, particularly Iowa 303 & jorgen too. Happy hunting all.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (02/07/15 04:24 PM)

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267372 - 04/07/15 10:10 PM

Righty ho! Waidmannsheil, Iowa 303 & Jorgen... I've been working away at the right hand feed ramp & success. Little by little I polished away the offending areas of metal and success.
I can now feed from the rotary magazine five rounds to the chamber successfully.

In truth I think a little more polishing is needed in one specific place. I notice the cartridge body now that it's positioning is a little more forward, there's some very slight 'trapping' between the ramp shoulder and the other side of the action. It is slight though and just a little more should make it perfect.

The photo's Iowa 303 & Jorgen posted/sent me were a great help & Waidmannsheil your success encouraged me on. I think in view of no logical explanation or visible reason why the jamming occurred, one just has to be 'brave' and proceed with caution polishing some metal away until the action does work properly once again.
Best wishes folks.
Cheers deeangeo

Pic of reshaped feed ramp in my MSch M1903

How it was before reshaping

Edited by deeangeo (05/07/15 05:43 PM)

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#267526 - 07/07/15 10:19 AM

Glad to hear your rifle is working properly!

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Waidmannsheil
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Posts: 2393
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
#267741 - 11/07/15 08:58 AM

Deeangeo, good to see that you have sorted the problem. You can make the action feed even smoother by mirror polishing all the surfaces which the cartridge contacts against when sliding forward. I have done this many times before on other rifles and the difference is quite significant.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#267775 - 11/07/15 06:56 PM

Quote:

Deeangeo, good to see that you have sorted the problem. You can make the action feed even smoother by mirror polishing all the surfaces which the cartridge contacts against when sliding forward. I have done this many times before on other rifles and the difference is quite significant. Waidmannsheil.

Indeed that's the next & final job with the feed issue Waidmannsheil. I should be doing so today...but the really fine polishing stones I ordered haven't yet arrived...so, next w/ends work I think.
Time enough....
I've just discovered a scoping issue I now need to sort out...but that's a different thread.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#268085 - 15/07/15 04:33 PM

Some plausible info. came my way and was re-sparked by an email I received from the previous owner of the MSch rifle I have.
His email tells me 'he doesn't actually remember firing the rifle' it was to be a project for restoration..but when he got the rifle home, thought it 'too nice to meddle with'.

RigbyMauser's comment -Quote-:'All Mannlicher Schönauers at that time they were made were litterately a handfitted gun. I suspect from your description some former owner had lost the original Rotary steel magazine and had it replaced with another one. However they hadn´t done what you did. Used the time to grind angles on the feedingramp so the cartridge could cycle perfectly.
So to your Question. No..a rifle from Ferdinans shop would never had left without a Meister Büchsenmacher prüfung. Nie!' ....and my thoughts the rifle wouldn't have left the factory unable to function correctly led me down a slightly different path, particularly after I'd seen photo's of later rifles with a different feed ramp profile..similar to the form I re-shaped mine into.

I now think the rotary magazines that we know are 'cartridge specific' were machined with different shoulder ramps on the magazine rotor blades themselves and so, if too shallow, as on later magazine rotors, would be unable to raise the feeding cartridge high enough to access the older style of feed ramp.

So it seems possible a magazine switch either knowingly or unknowingly by unknowledgeable staff at a dealership, could easily result in this problem which would not be apparent - until feeding rounds from the magazine using the bolt.
This would occur leaving absolutely no evidence of wear or other possible reason for the malfunction.

Just my thoughts from all the information I have available.
Cheers, deeangeo

Edited by deeangeo (15/07/15 04:58 PM)

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#268277 - 21/07/15 06:36 AM

Images kindly sent to me by a friend.. don't you just love the jewel like intricacy of these magazines. So beautifully put together... and each very specific to their cartridges..even varying by year of manufacture.
Just wonderful - until someone switches them from their original rifle.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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GPJ12345
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Reged: 18/08/12
Posts: 149
Loc: South Africa

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#268366 - 23/07/15 04:53 AM

And this is how a magazine filled with .458 Mannlicher Schonauer rounds look like...and feeds flawlessly...

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1778
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
#268374 - 23/07/15 06:22 AM

Quote:

Images kindly sent to me by a friend.. don't you just love the jewel like intricacy of these magazines. So beautifully put together... and each very specific to their cartridges..even varying by year of manufacture.
Just wonderful - until someone switches them from their original rifle.

As the photos were taken by me, some explanation, top left to right:
M1903 in 6.5x54 M-Sch, M1910 in 9.5x57 M-Sch, M1924 in .30-06, M1925 in 8x60S, GK "Magnum", 1968, in 6.5x68. These magazines are not interchangable. even the 1910 one does not fit into a 1903, as it is wider.
Bottom photo: Not the intricate machining of the M1903 follower and it's spring assembly.

The .458 Magazine with it's double cartridge guide ring is very interesting too. Never seen such a thing.

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
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Loc: United Kingdom

Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: kuduae]
#268379 - 23/07/15 07:41 AM

Thankyou Kuduae for the explanations & hoping you didn't mind me posting the photos which I view as extremely informative. I think the variations of cartridge/cal. types of the shoulders in the rotors really fantastic and have always been impressed with the fine engineering associated with MSch rifles.

For a while I thought I had a problem with the rotor spring..I took it to pieces to check it out. Clearly that was a red herring and there's nothing wrong in there at all.

Then I believed the release tab was the culprit...another incorrect assessment.
Finally the magazine itself, but no faults could be found there other than the shoulder ramps appeared to be for a different 'sideramp' feed. Which Iowa303 confirmed.
So, my magazine comes from a different rifle with a different sideramp in the action.
Anyway, feed issue resolved now thanks to info from those on this forum.

But, - That .458 definitely looks 'chunky' and in a nice way.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (23/07/15 05:01 PM)

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