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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem!
      #266820 - 22/06/15 05:07 PM

Shooting my MSch M1903 for the first time...a problem occurred. Although the bolt action is as slick as it should be, the feed of rounds from the rotary mag into the breech is very poor and certainly not smooth, requiring some force and visibly incorrect presentation of the round to the chamber.
Once aligned correctly the rounds chamber smoothly.

The alignment of the cartridge picked from the magazine by the bolt seems wrong though (Not quite high enough) and I cannot see what the problem is...other than perhaps the cartridge lock plate on the right of the breech (spring loaded for releasing cartridges from the magazine) being a restricting factor...but I don't know as it doesn't seem to have been interfered with.

The 'jamming' for want of a better term seems to be at the front of the bullet. Where the nose faces the 'ramp' lifting it into the chamber; but the ramp looks smooth and not interfered with either.
In fact the whole area appears to be correct....but something isn't right! - Photo's show exactly where the jamming resistance starts.

Thoughts from anyone?
Cheers, deeangeo



--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #266822 - 22/06/15 05:59 PM

What is the overall cartridge length of the ammo you are using ? best

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1344
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #266827 - 22/06/15 07:49 PM

does both the round nose and spitzer bullets jam? I don't think the rifle was set up for spitzers.

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1641
Loc: Finland
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: casper50]
      #266828 - 22/06/15 08:11 PM

I just tested my pre-WWII 6,5x57 magazine and it seems to work flawlessly even with S&B blypoint ammos. Those bullets are quite sharp. It´s true that you should be quite careful when loading ammos to magazine. All of them should assembled as back as they would go.



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GG375
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
      #266829 - 22/06/15 09:29 PM

It could be the wrong spindle in the mag. Is the dished section where the case neck sits, the same diameter as the neck or a larger radius? For eg you might actually have a 8 Or even a 9.5 spindle in that may.

Cheers

GG

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: GG375]
      #266845 - 23/06/15 03:12 AM

Thanks for your thought fellas. Both round nose & pointed spitzer should feed smoothly. They have done on other M1903 MSch rifles I've had in the past & this should be no exception.
Both types of rounds jam in the same place.

As I can find no other flaw, I'm coming to the conclusion the spring tension in the rotary mag. is not perhaps what it once was. I think this because the cartridge release spring seems normal and the round (Cartridge) seems unable to push over the restraining tab as the bolt face is moved forward.

I shall probably have to strip the spring in the rotary mag & try to either fix or obtain a replacement.
I cannot see any other material factor that may any relevance in lifting the case from the magazine.

The OAL of the cartridges is: 140gn spitzer 3.063" & 159gn RWS factory round nose: 2.974"
Cheers.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (23/06/15 06:33 AM)

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #266846 - 23/06/15 03:27 AM

OAL seems OK, in mine anything less than 2.9" or more than 3.04" it will jam, regardless of spitzer or RN. If you find a source for mag springs please let me know as I would like a spare for my 6.5 x 54 which is getting a little soft, best

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #266989 - 26/06/15 07:34 AM

OK, so I now know for sure it's not the spring tension in the rotary mag. that's the problem. The tension & spring are just fine.

The jamming occurs right at the case lower shoulder - exactly on the edge of the shoulder/main cartridge case body.
As the bolt pushes the cartridge forward just to right there's a small 'lip' that should deflect the cartridge upward... it doesn't & so the case jams right at that point.

What to do about it???? - things that make you go 'Hmmmm'!
Maybe I'll try gently polishing it with a Dremmel - but before I do - I'll think some more.
ATB, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267009 - 26/06/15 03:38 PM

Try to find someone near you who has similar rifle with same caliber so you could compare feeding and action details.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
      #267010 - 26/06/15 04:32 PM

I wish it were so easy Igorrock. These rifles are so out of fashion, finding an owner with one is a challenge - let alone one near me.

Even dealers don't have them on their shelves....the nearest ones to me I know of are all 200 miles away..& I know of four in total, two are 'Takedown' M1903 models, one an 8x56 M1908 rifle and the other a 1910 stutzen/carbine.

Finding a real gunsmith, properly skillful with old fashioned experience is also difficult. There are lots who are fine with simple work on modern rifles and flinch when an MSch is put in front of them. They're not in my view real engineers or gunsmiths.

The first image shows damage where the cartridge is jamming against the leading edge of the 'raising lip' at the lower right side of the magazine chamber.



The second shows the actual 'raising lip' on the right, to the front of the cartridge release tab.



--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267015 - 26/06/15 07:03 PM

So it seems that someone has bubbad yours action when drying to make it feed some another ammo....? Does action and barrel have same old serial numbers ? Or is this magazine rotor originally really for 6,5x54 MS ?

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
      #267016 - 26/06/15 09:28 PM

Deeangeo, I have a Greek 1903 action only which has identically the same feeding problem even with brand new brass and the correct 160 grain round nose soft nose bullets. The case hits that lip and jams up solid. The action has been dicked with by someone else before me and I have to sit down and work out why this is happening. I have a model 1910 in 9.5 x 57 MS which feeds perfectly with round nose bullets as well as pointed soft points, but I can not get that 1903 to feed regardless of the bullet seating depth. If I get a chance I will try to sort it out and let you know.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267031 - 27/06/15 03:39 AM

Yes guys, the serial numbers all match - including the number in the wood stock. I have no reason to believe anything has been messed around with. Close inspection reveals that in my case, we're talking about only 2 or 3 thou of an inch to free it up....but where that's taken from has to be very carefully thought out.

It may be possible to remove .001" at a time from the cartridge release tab, or it may be polished off the leading edge of the side ramp feeder.
I'm just not sure yet which approach to take....but I believe I'm getting there.

Trouble is, once metal is removed, it cannot be put back. So, I have to get this dead right!
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267034 - 27/06/15 06:02 AM

If it´s true that anything hasn´t been messed with yours rifle there isn´t any good reason for you to do that by youself. I just checked my on rifles magazine and couldn´t find any serial number from it so there is possibility that yours one isn´t original.

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Igorrock]
      #267036 - 27/06/15 06:38 AM

The Question has to be asked though, "Why are there feeding problems now when there were no feeding problems when the gun left the factory". You have to really spend some time trying to feed and watching very closely what happens to try and establish why the cases are sticking. Don't remove any material until you are sure that what you are doing will actually make a difference.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267038 - 27/06/15 07:37 AM

deeangeo,
I can post a photo of the action of my MS1903 magazine and feed ramp if you think it would help.
It feeds my handloads using 160 grain round nose soft points without problem.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

Edited by Iowa_303 (27/06/15 07:43 AM)

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deeangeo
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Posts: 207
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #267050 - 27/06/15 06:40 PM

I agree I have no way of knowing if the magazine is the original one (as mentioned, there are no serial numbers on the mag.) also, that the rifle most certainly would not have left the factory with this problem.

The gap between the leading edge of the feed lip and rotor on the magazine is so small there's no chance of the case 'wedging' it's a direct lower shoulder contact with the leading edge of the lip and if forced the pictured damage to the cartridge case occurs.

I have a feeling it's not the feed lip that's the problem now. I think the release tab resting on the top side of the case doesn't allow the bullet and front shoulder to lift quite high enough as the cartridge is fed forward.
Not much lift is required, but just a tiny amount more would I think??? resolve the difficulty.

I'm about to strip the release tab out of the receiver to examine further.
We shall see!

IOWA 303 that's kind of you & I'd appreciate a look if you can post pic.
Cheers, deeangeo

PS. I have stripped out the release tab and examined - it seems OK and the spring assuming orginal has plenty of tension...maybe if not original, too much tension?? It's a tight little spring. The grub screw retaining bolt for the tab are fine and were easily removed and replaced.
Hmmmm..

I just e-mailed the previous owner to ask if he'd had this feed problem, also, if the magazine had been replaced while in his ownership (he'd owned the rifle for the past 18 years)

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (27/06/15 08:05 PM)

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Jorgen
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Reged: 16/09/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267051 - 27/06/15 07:55 PM

You have PM from Denmark. JC

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #267054 - 27/06/15 08:13 PM

Quote:

Deeangeo, I have a Greek 1903 action only which has identically the same feeding problem even with brand new brass and the correct 160 grain round nose soft nose bullets. The case hits that lip and jams up solid.
The action has been dicked with by someone else before me and I have to sit down and work out why this is happening. I have a model 1910 in 9.5 x 57 MS which feeds perfectly with round nose bullets as well as pointed soft points, but I can not get that 1903 to feed regardless of the bullet seating depth. If I get a chance I will try to sort it out and let you know. Waidmannsheil.



It's interesting we both have this same problem on the M1903.
Apart from exactly where the cartridge jams against the edge of the RH lower feed ramp, it's certainly not obvious what the actual cause of the problem is.

One thing for sure, I absolutely cannot see that the action/receiver has been 'messed about with' & I cannot know if the mag. is original or a replacement.
I do know it is the 'correct' 6.5x54 rotary mag.

I'll post further as I progress with this.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (27/06/15 08:14 PM)

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267057 - 27/06/15 09:50 PM

deeangeo,
I will take and post photos this afternoon.
Currently on my way to a rifle match.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #267072 - 28/06/15 04:19 AM


deeangeo,
I hope this helps.
If you want a different view just let me know.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
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Loc: United Kingdom
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #267073 - 28/06/15 04:50 AM

Thanks Iowa 303. Your feed ramp certainly looks very different from mine. If you check out my pic of the same ramp against your, it can clearly be seen what the difference is.
Mine has a very definite 'cut in' while yours is a smooth flowing base line.

I much appreciate your help in seeing this difference.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267076 - 28/06/15 07:13 AM

I'd be interested to know Iowa 303 - what is the year of manufacture of your MSch M1903?
Here's a direct comparison: Your mag. & my mag.

Iowa 303 M1903 rotary magazine... a clearly smooth flowing lift ramp



This is my M1903 rotary magazine... a not so smoothly machined lift ramp



I'm guessing here's where I need to sort the problem out - the lift ramp.
Waidmannshiel I'd be interested to see a photo of your M1903 lift ramp...can you do please?
Cheers, deeangeo

Edited by deeangeo (28/06/15 07:18 AM)

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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: deeangeo]
      #267089 - 28/06/15 01:48 PM

deeangeo,
If I understand the MSch date code system correctly, mine was the 535 carbine made in 1934.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: MSch M1903 rotary magazine feed problem! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #267093 - 28/06/15 04:24 PM

The barrel usually has the Austrian proof mark stamped:
A number followed by a 'point' and another number as shown in the pic. in my case '1779.22'
.22 being the year of proof - 1922

The serial numbers are pretty irrelevant as all records were destroyed when the factory was bombed during WW2, so there's no 'paperchain' to determine year of manufacture.



I contacted the chap I bought my rifle from..he says he had no such feed problems. He had however placed the rifle with a gunshop in Edinburgh, Scotland to sell. The rifle had been in their store for quite some time, indeed, that's where I collected the rifle from after agreeing the deal.
So I'm now highly suspicious they may have swapped the magazine. Of course I have no way of knowing and the magazine is a correct one for 6.5x54MSch. but I now have to appreciate, ... possibly not the original one for my rifle!
The important factor however is this: The feed ramp is machined into the action/receiver - separate from the magazine - so in theory, any magazine original or not should work?

There was no way to test the rifle before buying as no ammunition or even empty brass was available. Indeed having bought the rifle in March this year...only ten days ago did I acquire ammunition, brass and dies for it. Hey ho!
Many thanks to all for your input. I'll post further when I resolve this issue.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (28/06/15 04:35 PM)

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