Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it?

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
Wanabebwana
.300 member


Reged: 11/01/13
Posts: 221
Loc: Canada
Designing your own cartridge. Worth it?
      #265501 - 25/05/15 07:34 AM

Unless you want your name associated with a new cartridge there is no need to design one.
Just about every combination of case and bore size has already been tried.
Why design a 9.3 with a shortened .404 case when you can buy dies reamers and brass or loaded ammo in .375 Dakota.(There is only a .009" difference in diameter between a 9.3 and .375).
Not available at your local shop,try .375 Ruger.
Gotta have a 9.3 try 9.3x64.

If you want to design your own cartridge check out the price of one off reamers and dies and see what the resale value of your custom one off gun will be.
Want to put a .404 in a 30-06 length action? Trim the neck down by .1". Standard chamber,standard dies. Will fire factory ammo fed directly in chamber. Can be reloaded to factory specs or higher.
If you later decide to lengthen your mag or replace the bottom metal it will feed factory loads without further mods.
In 9.3 cal I find the 9.3x62 very hard to beat. Hanloaded you can get 2650fps with a 270gr Speer in a 24" barrel and 4 rounds in a standard mag. The 9.3x64 will equal H&H ballistics in a shorter package.
The .375 Ruger would be my choice as an all purpose round in an M98.( The Dakota is not as readily available).
The .404 Dakota, 416 Ruger are also good DG rounds, equal in performance to their larger counterparts.
It's when you really feel the need for greater stopping power that a wildcat is justified.
The .450G&A. .458AR, the .460 Short, the .458 Sabi (based on the shortened .500Jeffrey case), the 550 Express, and dozens of others are already designed and tested and will fit in a 30-06 length Mauser action.
But then if you want your name stamped after a number on the barrel.....

Edited by Wanabebwana (26/05/15 03:04 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #265520 - 25/05/15 06:29 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Wanabebwana, I know what you mean!
But in my experience, some people like to write articles for magazines and books, just to feed their own ego.
The same type of people, "literally" want to make a name for themselves or go down in history!
Each to there own I suppose and especially so, if it is a worth while chambering but as you mentioned, most of the bases have already been well and truly covered!!!

The older I get, the more I think some people actually over analyse some situations, far to much!
Again, in my experience, if some of the Hunting bullets/projectiles that are available today, were available 100 years ago, I think there may be a lot less chambering options available today?

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Well_Well_Well
.333 member


Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Homer]
      #265521 - 25/05/15 06:57 PM

You could just get brass for an existing calibre made with your name on the headstamp......

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26521
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #265532 - 26/05/15 05:18 AM

Sometimes people do things like re-chamber a rifle, or perhaps dream up and chamber a barrel using a combination of 'other' reamers. They then them make up the brass to fit this new round, sometimes with re-cut and/or altered dies, just because they can. It's fun for some people. That is how & why I ended up with a couple of my own.

Are there other ctgs. that will deliver the same ballistics? The answer to that is of course there is - quite simply, nothing new under the sun - but "just because" is often enough reason for some people - like me - bored with the status quo? maybe! Others disagree - oh well, good thing we're not all alike, eh!

I've only scratched together 4 - I currently only have one left - I sought neither fame nor fortune - to figure out 4 good rounds, make or adjust other dies to work, develop loads and shoot them, was/is enough fun.

That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26521
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: DarylS]
      #265533 - 26/05/15 05:25 AM

As to the actual question presented in this thread, "Is it worth it" - perhaps THAT depends on what or how you define 'worth or value.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Homer]
      #265539 - 26/05/15 07:07 AM

Quote:


But in my experience, some people like to write articles for magazines and books, just to feed their own ego.
The same type of people, "literally" want to make a name for themselves or go down in history!

Homer




Seems like a strange thing to say, luckily there are plenty of "Egotists" out there otherwise there would be nothing to read. The Mauser books by John Speed are loved by most members on this forum and he has written a lot. He must have a huge Ego. I write for a magazine and enjoy doing it very much even though it takes about forty hours to write three thousand words in an interesting and informative way while trying my very best to make sure it is accurate. All that for $200, I must really be desperate for fame and recognition. Maybe there are some people who struggle to string two words together without having to get there wife to help them and are jealous of those who write. Daryl, Kuduae, Lancaster and Nitrox all write a lot on this forum and others, maybe they have an Ego problem as well.

As to making your own cartridge, it may not be worth it but it sure as hell would be a lot of fun to design and build, especially if it works and you can take some nice trophies with it or bring meat to the table. Someone who ties their own flies for fly fishing must want their name to go down in history as you can buy thousands of ready tied flies of the shelf.

All the custom gun makers around the world must also be in the same Ego boat as they are only re-making what has been around for over a hundred years and can be bought cheaply from most big factory gun makers. They must have a huge Ego. Joel Dorleac would have to be the worst offender as he shows his creations with great detail and many photos on this forum which we all enjoy.

Maybe some people are just such worms that they can't stand anybody else going to the effort of writing an article or a book, or making something for themselves, that they feel the need to shit on those who do.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #265545 - 26/05/15 08:53 AM

In 1969 I designed a cartridge, the .505 SRE, with the purpose in mind of duplicating .505 Gibbs ballistics in a cartridge useable in a standard length action. I succeeded in my purpose, but then decided that I liked .500 NE performance better, and duplicated that, too.

I had a rifle built around the cartridge, loaded it at first with my ancient Belding & Mull loading tool, then had RCBS dies, including case forming dies, made, tested it thoroughly and then took it to Africa, where I killed elephant, rhino and buffalo with it.

I never publicized the cartridge, and as a result several other cartridges with identical dimensions have appeared on the scene, but I have the satisfaction of having been there first. Like my friend John Buhmiller, who originated the cartridge which became known as the .460 Weatherby, I was happy to let others claim the credit, since I and my friends knew better. The satisfaction of bringing the project to fruition was all I ever wanted.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26521
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: xausa]
      #265547 - 26/05/15 09:08 AM

About that particular .458, I was told by a close friend, who also knew John VERY well, that John showed the ctg. to R. WTBY who was visiting him (John) in his Kalispell shop.

John demonstrated how a full load in a necked up .378WTBY (.458) at about 2,650fps, would not shoot as deeply in Oak as an identical 500gr. FMJ reduced to 2,200fps to 2,300fps. Roy went home and then introduced 'HIS' new .460 Magnum.

The mutual friend was Lester H. Hawkes, previously of Kalispel, also friend of Les. Bauska.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: DarylS]
      #265552 - 26/05/15 12:53 PM

One of the boys in Oz had one done..458 Alpine for use as a sambar rifle. From memory Boony had two rifles built..I haven't any idea if any others were built afterwards.
BTW Mr Hahn is enjoying himself lately...pics to follow.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: xausa]
      #265571 - 26/05/15 09:45 PM

I should have mentioned that my other purpose in designing the .505 SRE was to provide a low cost sturdy reliable alternative to the custom rifles built on Brevex actions, which were then the only available Magnum action large enough to accept the .505 Gibbs. By using a P-14 Enfield action, a barrel by Buhmiller and a stock by Reinhardt Fajan I was able to do this and produce a rifle which I carried through a total of eleven weeks on safari in Kenya and Tanzania. I don't have the exact figures, but I can be fairly confident that my total outlay for the rifle was less than $750, including the custom reamer and the loading equipment.

This was a time when Kynoch was no longer producing ammunition for the classic African calibers and no alternative was in sight. The .505 Gibbs was a proprietary cartridge, and no components for loading it were available from Gibbs. .505 bullets were available from Barnes, but they were being formed from .045" thick copper plumbing tubing and as solids were hopeless. I ended up swaging Kynoch 570 grain .510" bullets made for the .500NE down to .505". (I later discovered that the swaging was unnecessary, since the chamber had enough neck clearance to allow the use of unaltered .510" bullets with impunity.)

The only other cartridge experimenter I was aware of to develop a cartridge and then personally try it out on African game was John Buhmiller, and I was proud to emulate him.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wanabebwana
.300 member


Reged: 11/01/13
Posts: 221
Loc: Canada
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: xausa]
      #265576 - 27/05/15 01:06 AM

Tony at Tradex showed me his custom built 9.3/.338 Lapua and told me the dies were over $700. I asked him why not a .375 RUM, same bullet weights and same powder capacity with factory ammo availability, cheap dies and reamers. He simply said he likes the Lapua case and 9.3 was his favorite caliber.
The important thing is that he is happy with rifle.
I once designed a .338 on a full length blown out .404 case to improve on my .340 WBY. Before I could realize this project Imperial came out with the .338 Imperial (same as the .338 Edge) and later Dakota came out with their .330 which fits a standard 98 and Remington introduced their .338RUM. The Lapua, though based on the Rigby case would also have provided the ballistic advantage I was seeking.
All of these offered factory ammo and reasonable production and reloading costs.
I still think a .505cal 525gr Woodleigh at 2400fps in a 2.65" .460 Weatherby case with a .5" neck would be the perfect DG cartridge in a standard 98 Mauser with a drop box mag with 4+1 capacity.
Now if only one of the major players would offer it.

Edited by Wanabebwana (27/05/15 12:46 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3527
Loc: Colorado
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #265579 - 27/05/15 01:43 AM

I think just about everything has been done at this point and honestly, not much improvement in hunting capability in the last century.
I do see the allure of designing, making and using your own cartridge and any reloader can surely identify with that type of satisfaction.
I have often thought of coming up with a cartridge of my own but am having a load of fun making bullets from old brass, which of course has been done for decades although all of these new cartridges do form a good foundation for some pretty good bullets. The 5.7X28 being a prime example. Should make great 303 bullets!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26521
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Huvius]
      #265587 - 27/05/15 05:11 AM

The .505 Barnes Supreme has been around for quite a while. A Hungarian chap in Vancouver BC area thought he'd developed his own .50 cal. using a full length .460 WTBY case. I guess he didn't know about the .505 Barnes.

I fired one round out of it, his load IIRC was 125gr. of IMR3031 with a 600gr. Barnes for something over or around 2,600fps. Too much recoil for his skinny lad(back then). Shooting it was not fun.
I paid him $100.00 for the .375 H&H BRNO barrel he removed, unfired, from the ZKK 602 action he purchased for his 'wildcat'.

Huvius - the ctg. bullet deal is fun!




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: DarylS]
      #265593 - 27/05/15 07:32 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Looks like I hit a raw nerve, or maybe i got a bit to close to the truth for some!
I'll stand by my statement about how "Some people like to write articles........"!!!
Please note, my emphasis was on "Some people".

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Homer]
      #265605 - 27/05/15 07:54 PM

I'm doing a cartridge of my own, but it wont be named after myself or any person. I dislike when people wack their name on everything. Is there a purpose/role for it to fill? Suprisingly for this one yes. But it's not doing anything new, standard NE ballistics.

--------------------
.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Ash]
      #265623 - 28/05/15 10:27 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Ash, good to hear but now that you have "Wet Our Appetite", how bout some more info?

Further to new things, I'm surprised nobody has come up with a 0.290" ish calibre!
The reason I say this is, every 0.010"-0.020" or so (from .204" to .375" - eg .204", .224, .243, .257, .264, .277, .284, .308, .323, .338, .358, .366, .375"), we have another rifle bore Dia but there is nothing in the .290" ish bore?
You regularly hear the proponents of the 7mm calibre (0.284") bad mouthing the poor old .30 cal (.308")! They usually mention how much better/higher the ballistic coefficient of the 7mm bullets are and how much flatter the 7mm shoots, especially at long range!
But still......... no mention of a .29 Cal from anybody???
I might be barking up the wrong tree, or just have to much time on my hand or maybe dreamin but it might make a good 7mm-.30Cal go between! You know, the best of both worlds???

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Homer]
      #265631 - 28/05/15 04:13 PM

Well, there was .375, and someone made a .395 to fill the gap between .408ish. Boy i think that was a pointless escapade.

--------------------
.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Homer
.416 member


Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Ash]
      #265634 - 28/05/15 06:40 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Yes Ash, it's a bit hard to improve on perfection (.375!)!

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Homer]
      #265769 - 01/06/15 10:04 AM

There's probably room for a new big bore between .510 and .577. Maybe base it on the 505 Gibbs case with a bore of .525 ((525 Gibbs)? A 650g bullet at 2400 fps gives you an SD of .336, Penetration Index (based on the "Any Shot You Want" formula) of 130 (better than the 416 Rigby shooting a 400g bullet at 2400 fps), kinetic energy of 8331 ft/lbs, Taylor KO factor of 117, and recoil in a 13 lb gun at a sedate 118.69 ft/lbs.

Or Maybe a 475 Gibbs shooting a 500g bullet at 2700 fps? Gives you a kinetic energy of 8091 ft/lbs with less recoil than the 525 above, flat shooting as a 30-06 with a little more recoil and knockdown power.

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Edited by chuck375 (01/06/15 11:10 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wanabebwana
.300 member


Reged: 11/01/13
Posts: 221
Loc: Canada
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: chuck375]
      #265829 - 02/06/15 02:18 PM

"There's probably room for a new big bore between .510 and .577."
Chuck375 here are three of them.
The .550 Express, .550 Magnum and .550 Wells Express.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #265830 - 02/06/15 02:30 PM

Thanks! I knew about the 550 Magnum, but not the other two.

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: chuck375]
      #265832 - 02/06/15 04:19 PM

.550 was a good idea due to the readily available .460 Weatherby case they used as a parent.

--------------------
.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
db404
.224 member


Reged: 30/06/14
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Re: Designing your own cartridge. Worth it? [Re: Ash]
      #282282 - 13/05/16 01:00 AM

The answer depends more on individual personality than any other factor.

One person is influenced by a restless, inventive mind that has them looking over the horizon to what can be, while another person is more governed by order and routine and is well satisfied with what is known and proven. Neither is right or wrong, good or bad; they're just opposite ends of the same bell shaped curve. Most folks will land somewhere in the middle. But it does keep readership up when one end blasts the other. Its been my experience that the motivations for designing one's own cartridge are quite varied - one guy is primarily looking to fill what he perceives as a gap in the ballistic offerings, while another may primarily be seeking some amount of fame or notoriety. The later are often louder than the former, and seem to hold the strongest opinions, although often confusing the strength of their opinion for a well informed opinion. The folks looking to fill the ballistic gaps appear to be part of the group of shooters John Barsness has titled "Churners".

In the grand scheme of things, the cost of custom dies and all isn't likely to break anyone's bank, though it may mean postponing the purchase of that next AR clone or high cap 1911. I really enjoy my 7x57, although I wonder why Mauser chose to shrink the Model 98 action to an intermediate size to house it, rather than stretching the cartridge to a 7x60 to use up all that extra space in the magazine. Hmmm, if we did that, we could split the difference between the 7x57 and the 7x64/280 Rem, and wouldn't have to use bottom metal with longer magazine boxes. It would probably be best with a 35 degree shoulder angle and slightly wider shoulder diameter...Does anyone have a reamer for a 9x60?

--------------------
Dave

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 28 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 8350

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved