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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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deeangeo
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To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ???
      #265388 - 22/05/15 04:51 PM

I have my Mannlicher Schoenauer M1903 Takedown and there are two decisions to make.
The rifle made in 1922 has never had a scope on it. As I didn't buy the rifle as an investment, but rather to hunt with, I'm inclined to 'scope it.

What would be the concensus on both questions?

Q1. First - Should I 'scope it now?

Q2. There are as far as I know only two mounts available to buy and fit, both made by EAW (Apel) in Germany.
190-00034 - a side mount fitting that allows removal of the scope from the rifle, doesn't hold zero when replaced. The sidemount obscures the Mfr. name 'Oestrr. Waffen.-Ges. Steyr' Pic. is not my rifle.


Pic. is not my rifle.

500-00034 is a swing off type mount that will hold zero but requires a front mount on top of the engraving at the front of the receiver together with a rear side mount. Doesn't obscure Mfr. engraving. Don't have an image of this version mount, but this is what the front mount would cover. Pic is my rifle.



If 'scoping the rifle which would be your choice?

Now I'm going to Italy on vacation for ten days, so will be 'out of touch'....catch up on any replies/views when I return.
Cheers, best wishes to all & thanks.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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lancaster
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #265391 - 22/05/15 05:35 PM

EAW makes also three feet claw mounts but you have probably no gunmaker who is familar with this.
I make in such cases only claw mounts.
If I was you I would take the side mount and leave the receiver engraving untouched. it is now something that drop the price if the engraving is not readable anymore

--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/05/15 05:36 PM)

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casper50
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: lancaster]
      #265396 - 22/05/15 06:23 PM

Because I'm old my eyes aren't great anymore. I would love to scope all my old rifles for this reason. But, I just can't do that to a great old rifle that is unmolested. I have compromised by getting bolt mounted peep sights mounted on spare cocking pieces. Keeping the original cocking piece safe for remount if needed. This allows the rifle to be put back to original condition with no permanent consequences.





The peep is barely visible on the 1913 Mauser.

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WWGreener
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: casper50]
      #265413 - 23/05/15 01:12 AM

I too would choose a peep sight over both your scope mount choices. Peep sights are accurate and user friendly to old eyes. I put a Lyman 36 sight on my 1903. A bolt peep would be good too. They seem harder to find than the Lyman 36.

Who says side mounts won't hold zero? My 1952 M-S came with a Paul Jaeger side mount that returns to zero every time. I don't think gun makers would be wasting their time for nearly 100 years making and fitting detachable side mounts that are useless.

It's your gun. Do what you want. Maybe you could have bought one of the plentiful carbines that are already scoped.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: WWGreener]
      #265422 - 23/05/15 07:36 AM

In my opinion a scope complements a rifle perfectly, especially one used for deer stalking. They enhance the overall appearance, nicely made and fitted rings and bases add to the beauty of the rifle. Continental Gun Makers fitted scopes to their rifles from very early on, especially on Mauser and Mannlicher rifles but also break action rifles. While fitting mounts to a Mannlicher is a little more difficult they are especially interesting, particularly with a nicely shaped rear ring to suit the offset mount. I have made several custom sets for Mannlicher rifles and they are a joy to use and look at, and if fitted properly return to zero perfectly. The front base can be fitted forward of the breech on the barrel and the rear base sits on the angled flat at the rear, so you will not cover any text or engraving. Recknagel make claw mount rings and bases to suit Mannlicher rifles.

My advice is to do it, you wont regret it, if done properly.


Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
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Marrakai
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #265460 - 24/05/15 10:41 AM

deeangeo:
Here's another vote for what WWGreener said:
Quote:

..you could (buy) one of the plentiful carbines that are already scoped


Rather than vandalize that lovely unmolested example, sell it to a collector with young eyes and use the proceeds to acquire one of the many available examples already drilled and tapped.
If it were mine, however, I would choose the cocking-piece peep option.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: Marrakai]
      #265779 - 01/06/15 04:19 PM

Thank you all for your views on to scope or not. I appreciate your input. Here in the UK, 1903 stutzens/carbines are rarely seen advertised. I had one quite a few years ago and stupidly sold it. Had I found one at a price I could afford I'd have bought it, but this one turned up at a sensible price and I couldn't say 'No'.

I believe I will scope it having given quite some consideration to the matter - even though it does also have the MSch. peep sight fitted (Photo). I just need to take care how it's done.
Cheers, deeangeo



--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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kuduae
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #265802 - 02/06/15 05:44 AM

Quote:

doesn't hold zero when replaced. The sidemount obscures the Mfr. name 'Oestrr. Waffen.-Ges. Steyr' Pic. is not my rifle.


Pic. is not my rifle.


BTW, it's my rifle and the Mount, if properly set up, holds Zero when replaced.
But I prefer claw mounts on Mannlicher-Schoenauers, but with the front base not on the receiver ring, but on a ring soldered around the barrel shank, like on my Magnum 6.5x68 and M1910 9.5x57 M-Sch.

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: kuduae]
      #265810 - 02/06/15 07:21 AM

Cheers Kuduae..I use the pic of your rifle to show my engineers the side fixing should I choose this method. Below is the response from EAW showing at item 1 what they say about this fixing.
As I have no experience of this sidemount I use their 'needs a control shot' statement and presume it to mean zero is interfered with should the scope be removed/replaced..



Thank you very much for the enquiry. We have two types of mounts for the rifle:

1) lateral slide-on mount with rings dia. 1"/26 mm, part number 190-00034:
It counts among the fixed mounts and requires a control shot any time has been taken off the rifle and put on again.
The base is fitted by screws laterally to one side of the action (drilling and tapping required).
Please see our web site: http://www.eaw.de/assets/files/2014/21_AM_seitl_M.pdf

2) pivot mount with lever with rings dia. 1"/26 mm, part number 500-00034:
It is a swing-off mount that ensures optimal repeatability of zero. A second scope or sight may also been fitted to the bases of the mount.
Front base and rear base are positioned by screws on top of the action (drilling and tapping required), and need to be secured by glue or soldering. Please see: http://www.eaw.de/assets/files/2014/11a_SM_HSM.pdf

Both mounts require a gunsmith who is familiar with these mounts.

As we do not, from the factory, sell to end users, we would suggest that you contact our sole agent for the UK and Ireland for any further information. It is: Sentry Trading, Paul Grannell, phone: 0044 1420 300 123, sales@st.uk.com

Nevertheless, we shall of course be glad to answer any technical query.

Best regards,

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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GG375
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #266200 - 10/06/15 07:45 AM


I faced the same dilemma a couple of years ago. My 1903 had an old German scope on it which, although usable, was not ideal for my aging eyes. I decided if I was going to change to a modern scope it had to be done "right".

Here is the result -





I'm very happy with this set up. It did mount the scope a bit higher than the original but I just use a strap-on comb raiser and it's fine.

Cheers.

GG

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casper50
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: GG375]
      #266220 - 10/06/15 04:11 PM

GG where did the mounts/rings come from?

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GG375
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: casper50]
      #266224 - 10/06/15 04:47 PM


Casper30

They are a stock item from EAW. Need a fair amount of hand fitting tho.

Cheers.

GG

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: GG375]
      #266226 - 10/06/15 05:15 PM

Hi GG375, A very nice assembly with a really good scope!

Looks interesting but not an option EAW offered me when I asked them what bases/mounts/rings could be used. This looks like a fixed system on your rifle rather than a QD type. Do you have the model reference number & do they offer various objective ring sizes?
Any info greatly appreciated...

I was right on the cusp of ordereing the EAW mod: 500-00034 bases/rings although undecided whether I should have 26mm or 30mm ring fitting.
Cheers.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (10/06/15 05:17 PM)

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GG375
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #266235 - 10/06/15 09:20 PM

Hi deeangeo

The mount is a QD claw mount. To remove the scope you depress the button on the left hand side of the rear base and lift the rear of the scope up until the claws come free from their slots in the front base.

Sorry mate, my mistake. The mount is made by Recknagle (ERA). It is a bit of an involved process to order the parts. You have to go through their catalogue and pick the individual parts that make up the mount, in the sizes/diameters you require. I downloaded the catalogue, decided what I needed then got the ERA agent here in Australia to order them. Then you ship the lot off to a gunsmith experienced with the fitting of claw mounts.

I've had 2 of my Mannlichers fitted up and have the parts in the cupboard to do a third when I can afford it.

Happy to help further if you decide to go that way.

Cheers.

GG

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: GG375]
      #266273 - 11/06/15 07:40 AM

Thanks GG375.... I have started down the EAW route today and discovered similar in their catalogue. A 3 claw system.
I'm in touch with a German retailer who can ship to the UK.

If I fail with EAW I'll have to start on Recknagel...it's all quite a trawl through their pages though.

The front barrel ring has to be soldered the rear is not so complex.
I'm awaiting just a little more info from EAW, but they're very helpful as long as you know the correct questions to ask.

It's a 3-hooked claw mount for Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifles.
Front rings are available from dia 1"/26 mm to 80 mm for almost every bell size.
ATTENTION: this mount requires a lot of fitting labour!! Kind regards, Monja

The above is the initial reply ref a similar fitment to yours.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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GG375
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #266293 - 11/06/15 08:18 PM


Sounds like a plan........let us know how it goes.

When I had my mounts fitted I asked my gunsmith to use one of the Loctite products to glue the front base/ring to the barrel to avoid having to re blue everything. Seems to be working ok so far!

Cheers.

GG

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: GG375]
      #266373 - 13/06/15 04:28 PM

Hey ho! - I appear to have failed with the EAW route and now have the details for the parts going the Zeigler/Recknagel combination.
Priced at around £400 for all the bits and what seems to be (I'm told by someone who knows) a total of 8-10 hours work, all should be completed.

GG375..I'm going to get one of our engineers to 'pin-solder' the front barrel ring base and am advised a 28mm dia. barrel ring is the one get, then take out around .006" for the exact fit to my barrel dia. That's the start point!

Backlock (offset) 53035-0000:
Ring for back lock incl. offset foot "in the white" 56000-3026:
Barrel base saddle for 28mm barrel 50000-0628: (Not shown)
Ziegler front ring for 56mm objective lens :
Ziegler front dovetail base moumt :



First though, I have to buy the scope to determine the exact objective bell ring size req'd.....so, first cash goes on a scope!
Hopefully a S&B 8x56/30mm tube as soon as I can find a good used one.
Cheers.

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #267657 - 09/07/15 04:17 PM

Well, I bought the scope, a used but very clean example. Externally it's unmarked and otics look just fine... I hope they work perfectly.. no reason to think not.
8x56 S&B/30mm tube & A4 reticule.

Now saving cash for the mounts !!

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #267803 - 12/07/15 06:38 AM

Quote:

Well, I bought the scope, a used but very clean example. Externally it's unmarked and otics look just fine... I hope they work perfectly.. no reason to think not.
8x56 S&B/30mm tube & A4 reticule.

Now saving cash for the mounts !!



And now I discover this type of mounting system will not work with the scope I bought....so now it's think again time!
Frustration!
Man alive I either have to sell the scope I just bought & get a different one or find some other mounting system. Man alive it's really difficult getting to find the right information.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Igorrock
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #267847 - 12/07/15 02:44 PM

Quote:

And now I discover this type of mounting system will not work with the scope I bought


Can you explain more detailed why not ?

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #267854 - 12/07/15 03:47 PM

I wanted to preserve all the engraving detail on the action of my rifle..i.e. on top at the front & the manufacturer on the side, so prefer not to fit a claw mount located at the top front of action. Same goes for the sidemount, which also requires some cut-away of the stock in order to fit.
The answer appeared to be by way of a barrel ring soldered in front of the action...:
But taking the exact measurement of the S&B scope and distance between the angles of eyepiece & objective lens..

1. The tube is not long enough to reach the distance so I cannot use 30mm rings
2. The Objective lens angle is too long so an objective lens ring cannot be used either.

So unless some form of reverse direction mount is available I cannot fit 30mm rings to the tube
and if I locate an objective ring at the front (rearmost point of objective lens), the eye relief is completely wrong.

The only alternative is to do exactly what I don't want to do - to fit a claw mount at the top of the action front - over the engraved Mannlicher Schonauer and Model number engraving.
Unless someone out there knows different.
Cheers, deeangeo

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #269956 - 03/09/15 03:53 PM

Well, the rifle has been away at the gunsmith for over a month and I don't have a timescale when it will be done....but, probably not in time for the stags this season!

By the time all the barrel furniture has been removed and replaced, rings/mounts fitted, re-proofing at Birmingham proof house and then polished ready for re-blueing/blacking and the scope (Schmidt und Bender 8x56 - 30mm tube) finally set into the rings, I'll be luck to see it before Christmas (not sure which year).

Hey ho..all in good time I guess ... I'm hoping it will be a great hunting rifle once again, but with great assistance for my ageing eyes.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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karamoja
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #269974 - 04/09/15 04:27 AM

You must be like a child at Christmas waiting! Post pictures when you get it back.I will look forward to seeing it!
Regards Karamoja

Edited by karamoja (04/09/15 04:29 AM)

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deeangeo
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: karamoja]
      #272826 - 07/11/15 09:40 PM

It looks like I'm fully committed now!

I bought the scope mounting parts following good advice from a dealer not too far from me and it all looks as though it will work just fine, also the parts to ensure all fits well are not very different from the initial thinking.

So, the scope to go on my little beauty is a Schmidt & Bender 8x56 Klassik, 30mm tube, with the part numbers as listed below in case anyone should be thinking to do the same with a similar rifle, this is what will work and the scope will be mounted to give the lowest possible viewing height.

Front dovetail half saddle mount (in the white & requires blueing/blacking) located in front of the rear iron sight - Recknagel 50000-0617
Front dovetail claw mount fits into the half saddle mount - Ziegler Z238ZG0301
Front Objective scope ring - Ziegler Z075ZA0562

Rear locking base mount (in the white & requires blueing/blacking) - Recknagel 53035-0000
Rear scope ring with extended base Recknagel 56000-3026 - this requires milling to correct height and fitment into base mount (also in the white & requires blueing/blacking)

The total cost of these parts in the UK has been just short of £400 and are only available in the UK via the manufacturers main importers. So I dealt directly with the importer and not through a high street retail dealership.

Now begins the work of fitting these components to the rifle and when done, getting the parts that require blueing, blued properly. The total cost of getting this work done is going to be just about £1,000 GBP. But I am looking forward to the completed result which should be by Christmas or very early 2016.

Meantime it's more waiting until I can see how this wonderful piece of kit shoots.
Best wishes.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: To 'scope or not to 'scope & which mounts if I do ??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #272885 - 08/11/15 08:17 PM

Good luck with it.

I would have looked for a different rifle in Austria or Germany, especially if I lived in Europe/UK. Probably cost less than the modifications alone.

I bought and ex-mil Mannlicher and planned to customise it. Decided it would be easier and cheaper to have an original bought second hand. Haven't done it yet though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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