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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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AbitNutz
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YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question"
      #264981 - 15/05/15 05:11 AM

Ok, I know...another question on case filler. This is my first big bore, 450-400 Nitro Express.

I'd like to use what Kynoch uses but that seems to be generally unavailable. I've read that several folks use foam they've bought at Wal-Mart. Exactly what kind of foam are we talking about? Is it a hard Styrofoam board? Or is more like a dense seat cushion foam? Some have said Kapok. I'm a guy and I'm not sure exactly what that is either.

Thanks and forgive me for being so obtuse...

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Huvius
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #264982 - 15/05/15 06:26 AM

Go to your local Lowes, Home Depot, Ace and buy 1/2" foam backer rod.
It is made to fill gaps around door jambs and window boxes prior to trimming with wood molding.
It cuts to length easily with a razor blade or utility knife.

I use it in my 450/400 with no issues cut to be lightly compressed between the powder and the base of the bullet.

It is pretty much exactly what Kynoch uses but needs to be cut to length.

This thread shows the stuff and how I am using it in 450/400

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=257209&an=0&page=0#Post257209

--------------------
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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: Huvius]
      #264984 - 15/05/15 06:53 AM

Thanks...I'll do exactly that.

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DarylS
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #264992 - 15/05/15 10:35 AM

My brother has used the foam backer rod in his .45/60 reduced cowboy-action loads. The shot to shot velocity variations were greatly reduced.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: DarylS]
      #265007 - 15/05/15 10:41 PM

That's what I'm looking for. I did a search on the Kynoch stuff and it looks just like the closed cell foam Huvius is talking about. Talk about an easy solution to a problem with too many answers.

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kuduae
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265013 - 16/05/15 01:12 AM

Kynoch uses oversized plugs cut from open cell foam like common packing foam, as recommended by Graeme Wright:

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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: kuduae]
      #265018 - 16/05/15 03:50 AM

Ok, Open Cell. I just ordered a 100' of it...that's the least you can buy. I suspect that I would wear the rifling away before I exhausted that supply.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265094 - 17/05/15 11:29 PM

I just use sheets of open furniture foam and a punch to cut filler pieces. My .450 No.2 NE takes two of these to fill nicely.

I would post a photo but can't at the moment. Maybe later.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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albertan
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: NitroX]
      #265201 - 19/05/15 02:19 PM

Graeme Wright mentioned in his book that furniture foam has been treated with fire retardant and recommended the Kynock wads expressly for this reason. Not trying to flame you John, but I thought it prudent to get this out. If you have had no problems then its worth a try.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: albertan]
      #265219 - 19/05/15 09:47 PM

Doesn't seem a problem. The "filler wads" just blow out of the barrel and can be found lying a distance in front of the muzzles from time to time.

Will have a look at the book and see why?

BTW does ANY Aussie actually use Kynoch foam wads as a filler in Australia? Is it even sold here?

I'm just interested as the furniture foam filler is commonly used to my knowledge.


***


(NOTE AS ALWAYS, USER BEWARE, USE ANY RELOADING INFORMATION STRICTLY AT THE USERS OWN RISK, AND ALSO CONSULT ALTERNATIVE INFORMATION AND DATA SOURCES ON ANY LOADING INFORMATION AND LOADS. BE AWARE AND LOOK FOR ANY WARNING SIGNS WHEN SHOOTING CUSTOM HANDLOADS.)

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: NitroX]
      #265419 - 23/05/15 04:51 AM

My lifetime supply of filler was just delivered. The least I could by was a coil rope of a 100 feet, 5/8th inch(.625)open cell foam. The entire box cost me $15.95. This stuff is near weightless and is easy to manipulate. I just compared it to a small sample they sent me of closed cell foam. The open cell really seems to be the way to go. It's much fluffier(?) than the closed cell.

I test fit some in a 450-400 Nitro Express and 375 H&H case. Since it's a rope, all I have to do is snip it to length and each piece will be exactly the same. There won't be any variation from cartridge to cartridge. It will definitely do the job of taking up the excess space and holding a charge of AA5744 in place against the primer. If I have need of it in smaller cases that won't be a problem as it cuts very nicely and doesn't fall apart.

Thanks for putting me onto this stuff. I was very nervous about loading a 115gr case with only 35gr of powder.

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AkMike
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265427 - 23/05/15 01:18 PM

DO NOT, again DO NOT use any filler with AA5744 as per the maker!

5744 is not position sensitive. There's no need to hold it against the primer.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AkMike]
      #265438 - 23/05/15 07:47 PM

Can you provide a source about that? Not trying to be difficult but all I can find is that it's not necessary because it's easily ignitable.

I found a couple of posts from another sight talking about this issue.

They wrote the following:
1) If you really really inquire of Accurate they will tell you that they do not recommend the use of fillers with 5744 because they have never tested their powder with fillers.

However, an answering post from the same sight wrote:
2)I had an email this afternoon from Accurate and they now say a filler is acceptable with XMP5744.



From Accurate's sight:

It can best be described as a fast burning Rifle or slow burning Magnum handgun double base “hybrid” powder, having the typical chemical composition of handgun powders i.e. 20% NG – and the geometry of a typical extruded single perforated rifle powder.

Rifle applications:

This makes the powder very ignitable, which makes it ideal for low loading density applications, such as reduced loads on bottle neck rifle calibers, and low performance “straight case” designs, such as the old “black powder” calibers i.e. 45-70 45-110 50-110 etc.

The powder is virtually insensitive to powder position, and there is no need for “fillers”. It will deliver consistent results at low performance levels. Although there will be some un-burnt powder (see paragraph below) the performance will remain consistent.

Due to its ignitability, any strength rifle primer can be used.


Edited by AbitNutz (23/05/15 08:17 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265462 - 24/05/15 10:49 AM

I'm just left wondering why, with all the great powders available in the US for the .400 Nitro, would you want to throw the dice with a low-load-density pistol (fast?) powder?
I trust you have a very good reason!
...other than being a bit nutz!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Huvius
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: Marrakai]
      #265467 - 24/05/15 01:22 PM

Quote:

I'm just left wondering why, with all the great powders available in the US for the .400 Nitro, would you want to throw the dice with a low-load-density pistol (fast?) powder?
I trust you have a very good reason!
...other than being a bit nutz!



Thought that myself...
If you choose the correct powder, you can obviate the need for a filler altogether.
Or, if you are looking at reduced practice or cast bullet load, use the backer rod you just bought.
I used that with the Varget cast loads myself although I used 1/2" foam rather than anything bigger.
You may find that stuffing your cases with the foam you bought may be tedious. Please report back to us on that.
I worked on loads for a 404 I once owned and used backer rod in some and no filler in others and there was no difference that I could detect. There may have been a lower fps deviation with the filler loads but I didn't chronograph them and all shot to the same POI so it didn't seem to be much of a consideration.

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AkMike
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: Huvius]
      #265469 - 24/05/15 05:10 PM

I wrote them and asked about this powder some time back and they said NO fillers.

You can do the same.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AkMike]
      #265484 - 25/05/15 01:39 AM

I wrote them Friday but as Monday is a holiday, it may be a few days before they get back to me. Failing that, I'll give them a call.

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AkMike
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265514 - 25/05/15 03:58 PM

If I recall, they took some time before they answered me but that's been several years ago.

Like the others I question why you'd choose this powder for the 450/400. There are better choices.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AkMike]
      #265578 - 27/05/15 01:37 AM

Here is the latest from the horses mouth:

Yes you can use the open cell foam with 5744. Just make sure that you develop the load using the filler from start to finish.

CSR Western Powders

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Huvius
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265580 - 27/05/15 02:16 AM

I am wondering, when using a non-position sensitive powder, what the potential dangers could be with fillers?
Could you get detonation type issues?

--------------------
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AbitNutz
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: Huvius]
      #265583 - 27/05/15 03:49 AM

I wouldn't think so considering the reply...

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albertan
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Re: YAFFQ "Yet Another Freakin' Filler Question" [Re: AbitNutz]
      #265619 - 28/05/15 07:54 AM

Further to my post as to why Graeme Wright recommends that fillers that have been treated with fire retardant should not be used is to be found on page 137 of his latest book on double rifles. He claims that manufacturers are worried that if ammo with treated wads is left for extended periods (they worry about up to 10 years) that there is a chance that the fire retarding agent could affect the powder adversely.

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