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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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ducmarc
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.450ne versus 45-120
      #264047 - 23/04/15 11:10 AM

why does it seem the 45-120 is down on power compared to the 450ne. their both 3.250 the .450 is slightly larger at the base.there,s a dim view of using smokeless in the 45-120 have to use fillers and all but the .450 was originally a smokeless cartage do u guys use fillers or are the sharps guys afraid to put the juice to it.

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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50Calshtr
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: ducmarc]
      #264051 - 23/04/15 12:14 PM

The only similarity is the shape of the case. I've owned and shot both. The 120 is a black powder cartridge for use in rifles of the era, Sharps in particular. The standard bullet is cast lead in the 500-550 gain range with velocities of about 1200 fps. It is a very effective long range killer of large bovines. The Brit 3 1/4 is a nitro cartridge for modern era rifles. The bullet is usually in the 480 grain range at 2150 fps. It's an effective killer of about anything, usually at short range due to the rifles it is used in. Basically it is the higher velocity of the Brit that gives it the edge in foot pounds. Given a rifle of sufficient strength you can load the 120 to match the brit, however the 120 is usually offered in black powder replica rifles. It's just good common sense and a desire for self preservation to load the cartridge to take into account the mechanical weaknesses of the rifles rather than "put the juice to it" and blow ones self to hell.

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ducmarc
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #264052 - 23/04/15 01:27 PM

i had thought of that with an old rifle but the modern ones like a ruger #1 could it not equal the 450. besides a double rifle at the turn of the century did the 450 come in anything else?

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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DarylS
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: ducmarc]
      #264081 - 24/04/15 01:05 AM

Most data for the .45 3 1/4" Sharps (Sharps NEVER chambered a rifle for ANY 3 1/4" case)

As a heads-up on actual fact, the REAL .45-120 was the 2 7/8" Sharps case which was loaded with up to 120gr. of black powder and up to a 550gr. bullet, thus, it was called, among other things, the .45-120-550. AGAIN, Sharps NEVER chambered any rifle for a 3 1/4" case in any calibre. Winchester, on the other hand, did, using the British cases for the .45 and .50 3 1/4" BPE's. Thus some gun smiths on the Frontier of the US, particularly in St. Louis, re-chambered some Sharps rifles for the 3 1/4" Winchester cases. The Winchester loads, as noted in COTW used light weight bullets attempting to duplicate the Express rounds of the DR's.

ducmarc, you are comparing 2, 3 1/4" cases, one showing data maxing out at about 26,000PSI and the other maxing out at about 44,000PSI.

The .45 3 1/4" nitro case has a slight capacity advantage as it is a slightly larger case at the base with more taper than the quite straight case normally called the .45 3 1/4" Sharps. The difference in capacity is not great.

A Ruger #1, chambered for the .45 3 1/4" "Sharps" will easily duplicate & exceed any load that could be presented for a .45 3 1/4 Nitro Express for the Double rifle - The .45-120 Sharps merely needs to be loaded appropriately, as if it was a wildcat ctg., which, basically is, in that rifle.

The Ruger will handle higher pressures than ANY DR.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ducmarc
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: DarylS]
      #264091 - 24/04/15 03:08 AM

i see,was also thinking the 450 might have a thicker case wasen't really interested in a correct sharps design. just reading too much i think. noticed the blackpowder guys complaining about anything over 45-70 in smokeless is wasted and the african game guys wishing they made 450 4.500 lol. a as far as pressure is 44,000 psi in a 308 as hard on the action than 44,000 in a .450ne?

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Sarg
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: ducmarc]
      #264099 - 24/04/15 07:25 AM

Quote:

i see,was also thinking the 450 might have a thicker case wasen't really interested in a correct sharps design. just reading too much i think. noticed the blackpowder guys complaining about anything over 45-70 in smokeless is wasted and the african game guys wishing they made 450 4.500 lol. a as far as pressure is 44,000 psi in a 308 as hard on the action than 44,000 in a .450ne?



44,000 psi in the .450 puts more stress on the action than 44,000 psi 308Win, because the head diameter is larger .

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Lix
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: Sarg]
      #264102 - 24/04/15 09:30 AM

No real contribution to make to this discussion other than to relate my experience of both. I have used 450 NE often enough (not mine, I have a 450/400) and while I sure would not want to shoot it all day it is ok. A bloke here has a break action (H&R possibly?) 45/120 that is super light, and he loads it up there. When I first saw him using it I was amused to see and hear him groaning and flexing his shoulder after every shot (this on a Group 2 BGR shoot) and let him know about it. Then he handed it to me and I used it for the same course of shooting. I will never seek to own and use one and I will never again offer anything but sympathy to him, good god it was brutal.

Alex

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DarylS
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: Lix]
      #264106 - 24/04/15 10:35 AM

The 3 1/4" American cases, .45 cal. or .50 cal. from Bell, or RCBS (I've used both) can be loaded to exactly the same velocities with the same bullets as a .450 Nitro or .500 Nirto produces - as long as a strong enough action is used.

The pressure developed will be almost identical, if not identical.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Birdhunter50
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: DarylS]
      #264132 - 24/04/15 11:30 PM

Daryl, Ducmarc, and others,
I am currently working on a 45-120 conversion double rifle using the 3 1/4 inch cases and some 350 grain hard cast bullets. I have proofed the gun using heavier 500 grain bullets and am in the regulating stage now. The gun is being built on a 12 gauge BRNO sidelock action and I have not been bothered by too much recoil. It is a joy to shoot even with just a plastic butt plate on it. By the time I am done with it, it will be restocked and fitted with a proper red rubber recoil pad.
I have looked at the 3 1/4 inch nitro express cases and found very little difference between them and the 45-120 cases. The 45-120 brass cases are from RWS I believe and measure a full 3 1/4 inches long. I also have some 45 basic cases from RCBS that were made in Sweden and I guess they were made by Norma. They only measure a little over 3 1/8 inches long. I have not tried loading any of them yet but I don't think the pressure will be affected much using the same loads, do you? I will only have to adjust the bullet seating and crimping on the shorter cases.
I don't ever foresee having to use any 500 to 550 grain bullets in this gun but the proof loads I used in it were heavy enough that if that ever occurs, the gun will hold the pressure produced. The gun will usually be shot using 350 and 400 grain bullets. According to Ellis' book, the conversions should hold up against 44,000 pounds but I don't ever consider that we will have to load it up to that pressure limit. It will be used mostly against wild hogs with maybe an occasional water buffalo thrown in. I am convinced it will do the job on both of those.
As to the Sharps company never making a 3 1/4 inch case gun, I have seen it in print both ways.
Some claim they never did, but others say a few were made very late in their production. Whether they did or not is really immaterial to me. If they did, they were too late to get much use in the shooting fields on American Bison. I won't be shooting one of those either. As far as pressure limits are concerned, in the proper gun, there is no reason to suspect that the .45-120 3 1/4 cases cannot be loaded up to .450 nitro levels as they are nearly identical. This is presuming that the new cases are of very high quality, of course. Bob

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ducmarc
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #264134 - 24/04/15 11:54 PM

sounds like a cool project, have any pictures? are u using smokeless and did u use fillers

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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DarylS
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: ducmarc]
      #264136 - 25/04/15 12:29 AM

If your chambers have no leade or freebore, the slightly shorter case should allow using bullets with a little more shank out of the case, if needed to hit the crimp groove.

That little difference or .1" will most likely make no difference to the average pressure generated - however, case capacity should be measured.

I recall in my old Rolling Block .45 3 1/4", that RWS cases held 6gr. LESS than did the Bell brass.

I used to load 122gr. 1F with a 580gr. PP bullet (.451" over patch) in the Bell brass, but for the same fitting load, ie: lube wad and card in the RCBS cases, 116gr. was all that would fit. I barely had more than .2" of bullet held inside the case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rglenz
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: DarylS]
      #264138 - 25/04/15 01:27 AM

Birdhunter
I would think your short cases will grow to the proper length with enough use. My 450 3 1/4" HDS cases,used with nitro for black and black,need frequint trimming.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: ducmarc]
      #264212 - 26/04/15 10:11 AM

ducmark,
Yes, I am using 4198 nitro powder, 350 grain hard cast lead bullets so far, and backer rod to fill up the excess space. I don't have any pictures to show yet as it is in the very early stages but I will take some and post them when I get a little further along.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: rglenz]
      #264214 - 26/04/15 10:13 AM

rglenz,
I agree with that assessment, I think they will grow into the job.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: rglenz]
      #264215 - 26/04/15 10:17 AM

Daryl,
The chambers do have some freebore in them and I will most likely just set the bullets out further on the basic cases till they stretch to fit. I may not even have to change the seating now that I think about it. I won't be shooting for accuracy anyway, at least not for some time. 350's are light for this caliber and I don't forsee too much stretching.

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DarylS
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Re: .450ne versus 45-120 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #264243 - 27/04/15 02:21 AM

If the rim headspace is fairly tight, I don't think you'll see a lot of stretching either, but of course, that might depend on the brass and pressures generated.
With a good tight neck fit, crimping might not be necessary, however it helps the powder burn in these straight cases.

further, I think you should be able to run 350's at about 2,350fps, with pressures in the 40,000range - just guessing, using powders like H4895 - and maybe Reloader #17 - however I have no data on those for this round.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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