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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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belgmart
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Reged: 29/02/04
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2
      #263423 - 12/04/15 04:38 AM

Westley Richards no.2 - that would probably be no.2 Musket (500/450), given it's a match rifle. Get that beaut up and running (with black powder of course!), the no.2 is a very nice round indeed, my personal favourite BP cartridge. Easy to load for, inherently accurate - really an ideal longrange BP round that will shoot with the best of them.
BTW, I would love to know the chamber/throat configuration on that rifle, so if you're planning to make a chamber cast...
BTW, better start practising the supine position - after all, that rifle was made for it.

--------------------
Martini's Rule!

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:06 AM)

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HuviusModerator
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: belgmart]
      #263433 - 13/04/15 12:48 AM

belgmart, I don't have it yet but it should be here this week.
I expect it will be a No.2 as well. I have two other rifles in that chambering and agree that it is a beaut!
I can cast the throat for sure, but I hate trying to get a full cast in these falling blocks. I have had cerrosafe sneak in behind the extractors too many times...

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belgmart
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: Huvius]
      #263434 - 13/04/15 12:54 AM

Well, just throw it out (the extractor) before you make the cast - easy! The reason I ask this is that I'm really intrigued as to how these BP match rifles were chambered - there are some seriously tapered bores in existence, so really looking forward to the results from your rifle...

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:11 AM)

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fraserdouble
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: belgmart]
      #263506 - 13/04/15 11:16 PM

Guys
For the two of you ( at least ) who own and have used the 500/450 #2 Musket, how about some loading data and projectile information so that others can share your joy!
Fraser

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:11 AM)

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HuviusModerator
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: fraserdouble]
      #263510 - 14/04/15 12:55 AM

Fraser, here is a little post on my Hughes Farquharson.
I plan on trying some H4198 in this gun soon with the 350gr Berry's bullets. My guess is starting at about 42grs and working up will find the sweet spot. I can measure the bore for you as I had not bothered to do that before simply because the soft .458" bullets worked so well. Also, I just use pin gauges to measure the bores in my bpe rifles since that is the measurement of importance when using black powder and a long match type bullet but these 350 grainers are short enough that I didn't run into chambering problems even with a dirty bore. A long PP bullet may be a different story.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=167787&an=0&page=4#Post167787

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DarylS
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: Huvius]
      #263516 - 14/04/15 01:53 AM

Yes - patched to bore size + 1/2 a thousandths worked for us with long pp bullets & REAL black powder. Using a grease cookie of course. The patch was rubbed with the same lube as in the cookie: 60% beeswax, 40% Vaseline.

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:12 AM)

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HuviusModerator
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: DarylS]
      #263522 - 14/04/15 06:29 AM

Just ran some guages down the bore from the breech end.
.450" slides nicely all the way through.
.451" gets about halfway down the bore and stops.
A .452" pin stops dead at the end of the chamber.
This Hughes has Henry rifling and I would surmise that it wasn't actually made as a tapered bore but perhaps the breech end of the bore has worn some (just .001").

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belgmart
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: Huvius]
      #263579 - 15/04/15 04:23 AM

Looks like it hasn't seen much use - no.2 Musket normally should be .450 - .457 bore/groove. It's the groove dia. that really interests me though - the taper might kust be there...

FWIW, the original specs for Henry rifling called for a tapered bore.

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:13 AM)

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DarylS
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: belgmart]
      #263598 - 15/04/15 09:55 AM

Was the bore actually tapered, or 0nly the bore tapered, or was the rifle of progressive depth rifling. There is a distinct difference as with a tapered bore, the grooves would also have be tapered in depth for the tapered bore to be effective, or the rifling would be shallow at the breech, and deeper at the muzzle, where it was proved in the 1850's and 60's that the reverse worked perfectly.

The Enfield Minnie Rifles of the 1850's, the 3-band, 2 band rifle and 2 band Musketoon were cut with progressive depth rifling, which swept Europe and the USA in the 1850's. All of the USA and French guns as well I think, had progressive depth rifling, that is, the guns meant for the hollow based "Minnie Ball". With this rifling, the depth was .008" deeper at the breech than at the muzzle, thus with .003" depth at the muzzle, and a .577" bore, they had a .583" groove diameter at the muzzle, but .599" groove diameter at the breech, still with the .577" bore. It did not matter if the barrel was 24", 32" or 39" - the depths remained the same. The USA Minnie Rifles were thus rifled as well, including the .69 Muskets that were returned to the armories and rifled for the 730gr. Minnie Ball.

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:14 AM)

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fraserdouble
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: DarylS]
      #263613 - 15/04/15 09:31 PM

Thanks guys.
I am going to start with 32 gns of 4198 consistent with Siefried's formula of 40-44% of original BP load (80gns) in 4198. 42 gns might be a bit hot even though you are using 350gn instead of the original 480gn.
My Henry rifled barrel goes .461" as best as I can measure it at the muzzel. My 467gn mould throws 50/50 ww/pure lead bullets at .463' which should be perfect.
Has anyone got a NFB load ?
Fraser

Edited by Huvius (16/04/15 02:14 AM)

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HuviusModerator
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Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: fraserdouble]
      #263620 - 15/04/15 10:52 PM

Quote:

Thanks guys.
I am going to start with 32 gns of 4198 consistent with Siefried's formula of 40-44% of original BP load (80gns) in 4198. 42 gns might be a bit hot even though you are using 350gn instead of the original 480gn.
My Henry rifled barrel goes .461" as best as I can measure it at the muzzel. My 467gn mould throws 50/50 ww/pure lead bullets at .463' which should be perfect.
Has anyone got a NFB load ?
Fraser



You are right, I must have been thinking of something else regarding the 42gr charge. May be hot to start but probably close to good with the 350gr bullet.

I did look the No.2 in my Kynoch reprint and there are three bullet/charge variants:
Hollow 400/65, Solid 450/70, and Solid 480/76

Also, I measured the bore of my Dickson Henry and it does taper from .450" to .447" about 4" from the muzzle and then .448" at the muzzle.
I dont know if the loosening at the muzzle is to help the patch start its release or if it is wear from something.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: Huvius]
      #263693 - 17/04/15 10:17 AM

The Westley came today!
Overall, it is a very nice rifle and is indeed chambered in the No.2 Musket round.
The bore condition is not great. Maybe I am just lucky that my other BPE rifles have such nice bores.
The bore measures out at .458"
I think I have read somewhere that BPE rifles with iffy bores will shoot reasonably well with a NfB load and bullets sized to groove + .001" or whatever the chamber will allow. That might be the route I will have to take with this one although I am not conceding that it will not shoot as is. Will know in a couple weeks if I can get out to the range.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DoubleD
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Re: Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: Huvius]
      #263697 - 17/04/15 01:21 PM

I have a Musket No .2 Reamer and you can get a barrel liner from TJ's. John Taylor can install it for you.

Buffalo arms has a supply of 50/90 Sharps brass to make cases.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Mod 1881 .450 No.2 [Re: DoubleD]
      #263700 - 17/04/15 03:00 PM

DD, that is an option if it comes to that.
Do you have a link to TJs and John Taylor?
I have brass of course for the other rifles. I did notice that some of the cases I loaded which didn't fit the Hughes did drop right into the Westley chamber. A chamber cast will reveal what is going on there but I won't be surprised if there are little differences between the chambers of this rifle, the Hughes and the 1869 Westley.
I do have a Ron Snover Metford barrel which would suit this gun, but it is reserved for another project.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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