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Benchshooter
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Anyone run into this problem?
      #263022 - 02/04/15 05:18 AM

I went to the range today to try out some new loads for my 505 Gibbs. On my fourth shot, I got a click but no bang. I waited about 1 minute before opening the action and was surprised to see a case with powder spilling out and a bullet stuck in the first 1/8" of the rifling. The powder was yellowed and partially caked together indicating at least a partial burn. Load was 125grs of H4831SC with a 525gr bullet. Primer was CCI LR magnum. Brass was brand new and there was no contamination to powder or inside case, I'm positive. Bullet knocked out easily but I would still like to find an explanation on why this happened. I've been reloading for over 40 years and seem to remember this happening once before, also on a large capacity case of a 458 H&H or a 375 H&H. The powder that I used was new that I bought about a month ago. Anyone have this happen to them or a good idea what went wrong?

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DarylS
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #263036 - 02/04/15 01:51 PM

I had a similar occurrence many years ago - late 70's with my .458 2". The powder I was using was HiVel 2 with a standard primer, I think and was less than a case full, looking for .45/70 factory load equivalence for testing on bears.

The granuals of powder were yellowed and scorched, but no burn or not much at all. Later, full case loads with that powder worked just fine, so the powder was OK. I chocked it up to the less than a case full, with the straight sided case.

I had just been reading about John Buhmiller's dual primer system due to poor ignition in the large cases. Made sense to me and I stopped trying to find reduced loads with unknown powders, like HiVel 2. I don't know where I got that powder, but actually had 5 pounds of it (paper cans with pop-out tin tops) and the .458 2" rather liked it.

The bullet was pushed forward, but not completely out of the case, as it was barely started into the lands and extracted with the case, but was a bit too long to eject. I had to partially pull the bolt to get the round out. I was concerned another might burn a bit of powder and lodge the bullet into the bore, with the pressure blowing the bolt back when it was lifted. THAT happened to a friend of mine at a range down South in Vancouver. The edge of the spoon handled bolt sliced his palm to his wrist quite badly.

The only thing I can think of, was a bad primer in your instance as I expect the load was a normal one you'd used before. Mine happened on the first one attempted. I pulled the rest and didn't try to fire them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: DarylS]
      #263048 - 02/04/15 09:21 PM

Happened to me in 458WM when I was working up reduced loads for cast projectiles. I was using too little of a powder that was too slow. Projectiles were extremely difficult to get out - busted a few wooden dowels before I could successfully hammer them back out.

I would occasionally get a "warning" hangfire, but not always.

Edited by mauserand9mm (02/04/15 09:23 PM)

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: DarylS]
      #263049 - 02/04/15 09:22 PM

Daryl, I think your right about a bad primer being the problem as the load of 125grs brings the powder level to within 1/4" of the base of the bullet. Enough that I wouldn't need a Dacron filler. What puzzles me is that I can't imagine a flame that would clump the powder and turn it yellow as if it started to burn and not completely ignite it. It had to be a partial burn to push the bullet into the barrel.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #263050 - 02/04/15 09:25 PM

A pressure wave "blows" out the charge. Fillers won't always help either - I had a filler in my case too.

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DoubleD
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #263052 - 02/04/15 11:24 PM

I have had the same problem with loading smokeless powder XMP5744 in the 577/450.



It is not a bad primer, but a primer that is not hot enough. Changed primer brand and the problem went away.

And interesting side note to this, none of the bullets stuck in the barrel. The all came out the muzzle and bounce on the ground 10-15 yards down range.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (02/04/15 11:26 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: DoubleD]
      #263054 - 03/04/15 01:55 AM

Lucky - weak primer in the lot, is what I mean by a "bad one", if all the rest functioned properly. A weak flame would indeed do exactly that, partial scorch and burn. Even a .45/70 does better with a mag primer when using IMR 3031. In large quantities and straight cases, most powders need a strong primer. I never had a problem after switching to AL8 * Kapok filler for light loads with light cast bullets using standard primers, and magnum primers for all other loads along with some testing of John's dual primer experiments.

Sometimes as suggested, one must use a stronger primer with some powders, especially when there is a large charge of powder.

Even in the little 2" straight sided .458 case, I went with CCI250's for all loads from then on - suggested by 'Old John' as many called him. P.O. Ackley might have said something like that in one of his letters as well. I only spoke with John B. on the phone, but corresponded with P.O. and Elmer. Quite the gentlemen they all were. We are diminished, without them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: DarylS]
      #263058 - 03/04/15 03:00 AM

This is what my powder looked like.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #263091 - 03/04/15 05:26 PM

Powder has a deterrent on the outside of that granules that gives it the grey colour. It is blown off under these conditions revealing the yellowish coloured nitrocellulose. Some of the granules clump together I think because they melt a little bit without igniting.

For the issues I had, the powder column and wad did not move at all in the case, but still the projectile was forced into the rifling (by a pressure wave), and with the yellow, clumped powder remaining.

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albertan
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #263848 - 19/04/15 11:25 PM

You do not mention the specifics of the bullet, brass and rifle. Using a 24 inch barrelled CZ 550, Hornady's minimum load with their 525 grain bullets is 127.3 grains of H-4831 in Bertram brass. They obtain 2000 fps using this load. Pierre van der Walt's excellent book, African Dangerous Game Cartridges, and the A Square manual both show 131.5 and 132 grains of H-4831 only and respectively. With a maximum pressure of only 39160 psi, hang fires and secondary explosions are a very real possibility with too little powder. If what happened to you had happened to PH Robert Wilson, the famous Hemingway tale of "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" would have been much shorter and less interesting.

I realise that the Hodgdon Extreme powders are very popular, especially with their claim of temperature insensitivity, but they are designed for modern high pressure rounds. At less than 60 000 psi, it has been my experience that the slower burning Extreme powders are less efficient than older powders such as IMR 4831 and IMR 7828. They(the IMR numbers) will still burn cleanly at 40,000 psi. These two older IMR slow burning powders are also some, if not the coolest burning slow burning powders available. I could not get H-4831 or H-4350 to shoot in rifles that have proven themselves accurate in the 270 Winchester and the 30:06 without the use of magnum primers. Remington 9 1\2 magnums in each case improved accuracy and reduced the significant carbon fouling I was getting with these Extreme powders in these standard cases.

Hornady tops out with 133.9 grains of H-4831 with their 525 grain bullets. They get 2150 fps with this top load of H-4831. Hornady is unique in that their solids and softs are generally able to take the same load without problems. Not all solids and softs from other makers have this ability. Hornady used F-215 caps with their loads. As ATK owns both CCI and Federal, it is my understanding that the CCI large rifle magnum primer and the Federal large rifle magnum primer can be used interchangeably without load changes.

I would recommend obtaining a Lee factory Crimp die for this calibre to aid in consistent neck tension for more reliable ignition and to reduce the possibility and or severity of bullet set back. These Lee Factory crimp dies are a must for any heavy kickers that your life may depend upon in my opinion.

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #263939 - 21/04/15 10:00 AM

The rifle is a CZ 550 505 Gibbs Safari classic, Bullets are 525gr Woodleigh solids and brass is Norma with CCI magnum primers. Load data is scarce for the 505 Gibbs and most of the information that I was getting is from the Internet. I've seen loads starting at 120 grs of H4831 and all the way up to 142 grs with the 525gr. My first three rounds were 120gr loads and fired with no problem. The load that failed to fire was 125grs. I was going to load with IMR 4831 til I read that H4831 was a better choice because of it being slightly slower than IMR4831. I also didn't want to use a filler like I would have had to with Re15 powder. I used a heavy crimp also and loaded the rifle singularly because I am just load testing. A Lee factory crimp die sounds like a good suggestion but where can you purchase one. The only Lee 505 Gibbs crimp die that I have seen sells from Africa.

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albertan
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #263952 - 21/04/15 03:35 PM

Hello Benchshooter;

Lee has a website that will allow you to order from them directly. If this won't work, give them a call. They are great to deal with. I live in Canada and have never had a problem getting stuff from them. Even when I had to send dummy rounds across the border. Any delays were government related. They were fast. I don't like their lock rings so I use RCBS instead. Huntington's Reloading supplies can help you with large bore stuff from RCBS.

Reference manuals that have 505 Gibbs data include the latest Barnes manual(this is online), Hornady's 9th edition, Norma's Reloading manual, Pierre van der Walt's African Dangerous Game Cartridges manual, the A-Square manual, and the hot off the press, Woodleigh manual. I just found out about this an hour before I started typing this.

In the older Norma manual they list 140.4 grains of very slow burning MRP-2 with the 525 grain Woodleigh FMJ. They list 153.0 grain with the 525 grain Woodleigh RNSN. They use Norma brass and Winchester magnum caps. Velocities run 2277 and 2415 respectively. Note the extreme difference in powder charges between the Woodleigh soft and solid loading. These are the only loads listed. There were no loads other than these listed. Even with my 458 Winchester I have to load the Woodleigh 500 grain FMJ 1.2 grains less than the 500 grain soft. I get the same velocities and the bullets hit the same hole at 100 yards. With Hornady's I use the same load.

Pierre van der Walt chronographed the Norma 600 grain load in a rifle like yours and got the claimed 2100 fps. He pulled a bullet and got 128.0 grains of a propellant that looked like IMR 7828. This powder performed like the IMR 7828 as well.


Pierre van der Walt loads 525 grain slugs with 140-144 grains of IMR 7828. 140 with the solid and 144 with the soft and you should be okay. This last sentence is my own. I don't mean you harm. With Hornady 525 grain bullets, they start at 131.6 grains of IMR 7828 and stop at 140.1 grains of IMR 7828 at a top speed of 2250 fps.

What ever powder you use is your business. I would contact the powder manufacturer and ask them what they would suggest. These guys know what works. Alliant Powder or Hodgdon's Powder both will answer your request. I would reckon that this will break up the monotony of their day.

My best wishes.

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albertan
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #263953 - 21/04/15 04:20 PM

Pierre van der Walter recommended the use of Imperial sizing wax when resizing the large 505 cases. He felt that graphite lubricant was required for inside neck lubrication as well. He also warned against tumbling the brass because if one of the granules of polishing medium got stuck in the flash hole a dangerous load might result. I would recommend annealing the brass after each firing.

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eagle27
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #263956 - 21/04/15 04:59 PM

H4831SC is actually AR2213SC made in Australia and re-branded as Hodgdon H4831SC powder for the American market.

The reloading manual available online for the Australian powders does not list loadings for the 505 Gibbs but does so for the 500 Jeffery using a 500 bullet with 96.0grs AR2206 powder for a MV of 2300fps (45" barrel!!!). This is the only loading they publish for the Jeffery cartridge with AR2206 sitting between IMR3031 and IMR4895 burning rates.

Perhaps the faster powders are better suited for these large bottle neck high intensity (relatively speaking) cartridges rather than the slow H4831/AR2213?

Edited by eagle27 (21/04/15 05:02 PM)

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #263963 - 21/04/15 09:01 PM

Gentlemen, Thanks for all your responses and information to my post. Albertan, Thanks for your info on the loading manuals and about contacting Lee about the factory crimp die. I will check these out, especially the Woodleigh manual. I use imperial sizing wax for all my reloadings and use the stainless steel media for all my tumbling. I have an annealer machine but need to see if they make a plate big enough to handle the larger case size. I have noticed on the first firings that the case mouths are no longer square. The case mouths grow at about a 5-10 degree angle after resizing. I trim them square again using an RCBS large capacity case trimmer. Lots of good information from all and very well appreciated.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #263965 - 21/04/15 10:36 PM

Benchshooter,
I had this same problem with a .577 trying to use H 4350 and IMR 4350 powders to get a nitro for black loading. I had powder that was charred to a brown/orange color and bullets driven just into the barrels 5 or 6 inches. I had hang fires, misfires, and bloopers where the bullet left the barrel but was practically rolling along the ground! I gave up on these powders because of all the associated problems and because I was afraid of getting a blown barrel or worse.

In fairness to these powders, I think that trying to get them to perform at a reduced loading density was part of the problem. Also you need to use only the hottest magnum rifle primers in loading large cases. I also think some kind of crimp on the cases is a good idea because of the lack of starting pressure and because the firing of the first barrel load could partially pull the bullet on the second load.

I was using backer rod to fill the excess space in the case but I do not think this caused any of the problems I was having. These were roughly 80 grain loads with a 650 grain hard cast bullet in front of them. 4831 also caused the same problems and both left lots of unburned powder in the barrels.

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albertan
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #263969 - 21/04/15 11:21 PM

Benchshooter,

If you check out the annealing posts here you will find some great ideas for shell holders for annealing. Ratchet sets made dandy shell holders for big, awkward cases like your Gibbs. The information presented for free here is top shelf.

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #263983 - 22/04/15 05:23 AM

Albertan, I just ordered the Lee factory crimp die and Woodleigh loading manual. I think that I will pull the bullets on the few rounds that I have loaded with 120grs of H4831SC and load them with 133-135grs of H4831SC until I receive my Woodleigh manual. I've got some IMR4831 and might load a couple with that powder also. My loads of 120grs registered a velocity of only 1700 on my chronograph so I knew that they were underpowered after I shot them. I always try to work up in loading but I guess with these big cases, you have to be careful not to start too low. Thanks once again.

Edited by Benchshooter (22/04/15 05:25 AM)

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albertan
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #263996 - 22/04/15 04:34 PM

Pierre van der Walt, referencing the A-Square manual, shows a starting load of 128 grains of IMR 4831. The top load with IMR 4831 was 132 grains with a top speed of 2257 out of a 26 inch barrel.This was with 525 grain bullets of A-Square manufacture.

When I am dealing with softs and solids in a rifle, I employ two seaters, one for the soft, and one for the solid, and so marked. I use a Lee factory crimp die to finish the process.

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #264034 - 23/04/15 04:07 AM

Albertan, Thanks for the info. That will give me a starting point. I also contacted Hodgdon powder about the situation and the person that I talked with said that he didn't have any load data on this cartridge but to him it sounded like the powder was to slow for it. I may have to move from this powder altogether.

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albertan
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #264038 - 23/04/15 07:01 AM

I don't believe that older (pre-Extreme) H-4831 would have given you this much grief. Norma used to suggest Norma MRP-2,( now discontinued) which is much slower than H-4831. Even IMR 7828 is slower than H-4831, but it doesn't have the pixie dust that gives it as much temperature resistance, particularly at low temperatures as the Extreme H-4831. I do believe that this pixie dust requires pressures in the 60,000 psi range in order for the slower burning Extreme powders to work as advertised. But the IMR 4831, and the IMR 7828, do work better in the 40,000 psi range in cases like the Nitro Express numbers, the .416 Rigby, and the .505 Magnum Gibbs.

I still stand by my earlier assertion that IMR 4831 and IMR 7828 would be my first choices for powders with both 525 and 600 grain bullets. IMR 7828 is listed in the Barnes manual for use with their 525 grain Banded Solids, and their Triple Shocks. 90% plus loading densities in each case.

It may be me being superstitious, but I personally would avoid compressed loads in this cartridge. Just enough room to hear the distinctive tinkle of powder jiggling in the loaded case would calm my nerves before taking this cartridge into battle. A sort of final , final, final check.

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: albertan]
      #264415 - 01/05/15 03:16 AM

I had a chance to go out to the rifle range yesterday to test out a few of my 505 Gibbs loads. Out of 19, I had 3 or 4 hang fires (all using the H4831SC powder)along with 4 dented necks as seen in the picture below. I've seen this on the case bodies before but never on the necks. Two of the dented necks were using IMR4831 and the other two were from H4831SC.I chronographed the loads and came up with one string that was 2021, 2036 and 1710fps.(the latter being one of hangfires. Though the IMR powder seemed to work out better than the Hodgdons, it still doesn't explain the neck dents from both powders. I'm beginning to think that it is a primer problem. When I first primed a few cases, I didn't have a large enough head for my hand priming tool for this big of case so I had to use the RCBS rock chucker primer attachment and found that I had to bang the handle a few times to seat the primers because they protruded a little. I may have crushed the primer anvil on a few of them. I finally received my new tool head and the primers seated easy.

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Ash
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Benchshooter]
      #264442 - 01/05/15 06:09 PM

I had dented mouths from cases ejecting onto the concrete floor of a range, but i cant see how those could occur?

--------------------
.

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DarylS
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: Ash]
      #264458 - 02/05/15 12:21 AM

Just a thought - appears to me that:

1/. the shoulders are filling out well, but perhaps the necks are a bit hard and not sealing due to the low ballistics you are producing. I assumed they should be running in the 2,300fps range.

2/At 2,000fps they are sub or low-pressure loads and the powder is still not burning well. I seriously doubt any of the 4831's are suitable for lower pressure NE - type loads.

They were designed for ctgs. that run in the 60,000psi to 65,000PSI range.

www.kwk.us/pressures.html lists the Gibbs as a 39PSI CIP Pezio range (35,000CIP crusher. These pressures are not conducive to good, consistent ballistics with THOSE powders.

Since your pressures MUST be considerably lower than that due to the velocities you recorded, THAT is most likely your problem.

I have no experience with the .505, nor any other NE round - but - your brass is showing all the signs of too-low pressure - OR - too hard in the necks to seal - as well - both probably.

On the other hand, as well, this can happen if during a hangfire, the bullet is ejected into the throat ahead of the neck by a minor parcical ignition, and pressure stops building, then the powder's ignition re-manifests itself, developes normally and spits it out the tube - nasty hangfire is evident. The sharp shoulder had sealed, but the necks didn't seal before powder gases got between the neck and the chamber neck - collapsing it as it increased.

I would research, then do some more loading - with faster burning powders. Neither of the 4831's nor 4350's are suitable for such low pressures.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Benchshooter
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Re: Anyone run into this problem? [Re: DarylS]
      #264462 - 02/05/15 05:12 AM

Daryl, I think that you're right on with your theory. I just received my Woodleigh loading manual and it states in the heading preceding the load data that loading below approx. 128 grs can create erratic ballistics and that this could lead to higher extreme spreads and sometimes hang fires and misfires. They also advise a filler to be used under 128 grs on any powder. I was using CCI rifle magnum primers while the manual called for Federal 215 primers. It may or may not make a difference but I need to take out all the variables that I can. Tomorrow I will head to Fin Fur & Feathers to get some Federal primers and a different powder. I have seen where a lot of people are using Alliant RE15,19 &22 with RE15 being used the most. I have a Lee factory crimper being made and that should help also. I used a pretty hard roll crimp on the last firings but I think the lee die will offer a better one.I have been reloading for over 40 years and have never seen necks do what these have. I've seen dents in the cartridge body but not the necks. I think your synopsis about the partial ignition along with the hang fire makes total sense.

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