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GPJ12345
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Loc: South Africa
8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular?
      #262854 - 28/03/15 07:16 AM

Good day members
Your opinion regarding the 8x68S rifle for longer distance hunting plains game out to 400 meters will be much appreciated. I am in the process of putting one together for this type of hunting. I would like to know the pro and cons of this caliber. Your opinions will be much appreciated...


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8x68
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #262857 - 28/03/15 09:22 AM

Hello there from the "Newbie Canuck!"

I have an BRNO 602 in 8x68. I have a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x40 on it. It's a fantastic calibre. Just this morning I was reading an article by Karl Stumpfe about it. The articles are actually from this forum from 2010. The article is a bit blurry unfortunately but here is the link: nitroexpress.info/ezine/Articles/KarlStumpfe/germanysgreateight.pdf

I like the 200gr Nosler partition, or Speer 175 or 200gr Spitzer depending on game being hunted. 8x68 is on par with the 8mm Rem Mag, or 338 Win Mag just more pleasurable to shoot.

200gr bullet is going to give you around 2900fps at the muzzle. ME would be about 3700ftlbs. If you hold 3" high at 100m your drop at 400m would be about 17". 400m velocity would be around 2100fps & ME around 1440ftlbs.

175gr Sierra is going to be around 3025fps at the muzzle. ME is 3550ftlbs. 400m stats MV 2114fps. ME 1740ftlbs. Drop about 15" if holding 3" high at 100m
If you're 2.5" high at 100m then it drops an additional 2.5" for both loads at 400m.
Data is from RCBS Load V3 program using 25.5" barrel.

I'm sure the Speer Hot-Cor, Swift A Frame, North Fork, or Lapua 180gr Naturalis would be decent choices as well. Barnes 200gr TSXbt would be interesting to play around with also.

I used to use the Hornady 150gr Sppt to hunt groundhogs with devastating effect.

If you need anymore info I'll see what I can do.

--------------------
John 3:16


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DarylS
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: 8x68]
      #262859 - 28/03/15 10:11 AM

Buddy of mine here has been using an 8x68S in one rifle or another since I met him in 1979. He is an incredible game shot, and moose kills at close to 400yards are nothing special.
His favourite moose bullet for many years, was the 196gr. yellow Plastic Tipped Norma. It worked beautifully on them at all ranges.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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GPJ12345
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #262874 - 28/03/15 05:11 PM

Thank you Julian, Daryl S
The replies are appreciated. I always wanted a 8x68S rifle, it seems to be difficult to purchase one since it is extremely expensive..I do have an opportunity to build my own 8x68S rifle now. I really like the appearance of the 8x68S round, it seems bulky and capable...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #262875 - 28/03/15 06:26 PM

I've used Karl Stumpfe's rifle. The calibre works well. I shot some warthog, a couple of springbok and a hartebeest with it. Hits nice and hard.

My comments - pros and cons:
- similar to a .300 Magnum in performance but more exotic sounding. With history.
- Evokes the African bush, German sporting hunters in German East Africa and German South West Africa in the first half of the century. And also Afrikaan hunters from Southern Africa.
- while similar to the .300's, works better in its range of bullet weights with the heavier bullet range of 200 t0 220 grains. Has lighter bullets available too though, but often these are designed for slower velocities.
- I would like to source and try some heavier bullets such as 250 grs in it.
- disadvantage is loaded ammunition would be hard to find. South Africa might have some gunshops carrying it, same for Germany etc. A problem when travelling, if ammunition needs to be purchased if bags are lost etc.
- the original 8mm Magnum is the 8x68S.

I must have liked it as I added a barrel to my Mauser M03 for it. Planning to take it up to the NT later this year if things go as planned.

I bought mine as it was planned to be my "world hunting rifle" for medium game. Flat shooting and hard hitting. Powerful to take virtually any game with proper bullets and shots.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #262877 - 28/03/15 06:32 PM

JC Munnell wrote in The Accurate Rifle, (March 2002 edition), about his 8x68S Weatherby, (such things exist in Europe). He noted that the 8x68S cartridge is generally based on the .280 Ross case introduced in 1906. He concluded, "I know an African PH who thinks the 8x68S is the best African antelope cartridge extant, and frankly I find it impossible to dispute him".

I use an 8x68S for sambar, a large deer species, (for instance, it used to be known as 'Ceylon elk'), so in many ways this deer is like a kudu, eland, etc. This cartridge, which is in general terms a metric equivalent to .338 Winchester Magnum, has always seemed to me to be as ideal as Mr Munnell stated. Compared to a .375 H&H, the recoil is quite a bit less.


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Rule303
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #262882 - 28/03/15 09:50 PM

Great cartridge. You do need a full magnum lenght action to get the best out of it. Mine is built on a M17 with the mag box lenghtened. A mate has one built on a brno 602. You can seat the projectiles out and add a bit more powder.

I am still develping loads for mine. At the moment I am getting 2800fps with the 220 grain Woodlieghs, 3250fps with ACP 175grain pills. All have an overall lenght greater than 90mm.


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GPJ12345
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Rule303]
      #262889 - 29/03/15 02:02 AM

Thank you John, Kiwibloke and Rule 303 for the replies it is much appreciated. I think I will be able to work on the action to accept a longer seated bullet for more power....it really is going to be a nice project for myself. Since it will not be a walk and stalk rifle I will make use of a long heavy barrel, maybe a 28 inch barrel will be suffice .

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Rolf
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #262941 - 30/03/15 10:10 PM

Gentlemen,

on my first Safari to Namibia I took an Mauser 98 system based 8x68S with an unusual short barrel of 58cm (22.8").
With a 2,5-10x42 scope it weighed about 4.45 kg (9.8 lbs) and was comforting to carry and to shoot.
As the muzzle blast and fire was severe with full power factory loads, only medium to medium-slow powders were combined with below-maximum-loads.

Due to the advice of several gentlemen in this forum (again, thank you very much!) I used the 200grs Swift A-Frame and the 200grs Accubond on hartebeest, zebra, oryx and springbok. Sierra 200grs Matchking bullets were used for training and sighting-in.

If the animal was not standing broadside, the 200grs Accubond stayed within the animal.
I would not use it again on zebra, oryx and hartebeest, although it did not "fail".
The Swift A-Frame did always exit and I had not to think about the angle or position of the animal.

System mauser 98:
The standard cartridge length is about 87mm, but if it is possible to lengthen the magazine box for cartridges up to 91,0mm (and to make the throat correspondingly longer), I would recommend it.
My rifle had this modification, and it is really an advantage to seat the bullets further out!

Cases were produced by Hirtenberger and currently only (in good quality) from RWS.
If you need help for acquiring cases, I can offer support.

best regards
Rolf


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Rolf]
      #262942 - 30/03/15 11:39 PM

That is a good point. The 8x68S is a "magnum" length cartridge and a 25 to 26 inch barrel is worthwhile.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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GPJ12345
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: NitroX]
      #262956 - 31/03/15 05:21 AM

Thank you Rolf

I appreciate your input, since it is knowledge you acquired by using the 8x68S in the hunting scenario. I looked at the possibility to lengthen (opening up the back of the action/lengthen the magazine box as well ) I can do it safely...the stripper-clip opening can make way for the longer seated bullet, taking metal away to the back of the action will not compromise strength of the action.
The barrel will at least be 28 inches a type bull barrel (heavy)....the 8x68S rifling twist is 1:11 I am contemplating ordering a 28 inch heavy profile barrel with a 1:9.45 rifling twist (8X57JS)...It will be a special order and more expensive...my rationale for this idea is that a tight twist and large case capacity will stabilize a heavy long bullet even better than the 1:11 rifling twist...I would like to hear your /members opinion on this specific remark...

Do you think it makes sense or will there not be any noticeable effect?

Rolf, I certainly will make use of your offer to assist us to get 8x68S RWS brass, since it is not a common item in South Africa...can I contact you regarding this issue?

Gert

Edited by GPJ12345 (31/03/15 05:25 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #262960 - 31/03/15 05:48 AM

P-14's make good 'action' platforms for the 8x68S.

Case Length 2.658"

8x68S RWS brass is super.

If need be, 8x68S brass can be made from .375H&H quite easily.

Turn the .532" belt down to .522" to .524" on a lathe, to fit the 8x68S chamber. I used .522" and it worked perfectly for me in the chamber I cut in the .375" bl. for the 9.5x68 chambering I dreamed up, for a rimless .375 - in the mid. 1980's.

Lube and run the .375H&H case into an 8x68 seater die with the seating stem removed, then the Fl sizing with decapping stem removed. Trim to the length of 2.660".

Replace the decapping stem and re-FL size to open the neck for the 8mm bullet. The necks may or may not need to be reamed or turned. Trim to 2.650". Max case length is 2.658" according to Hornady's Loading Manual.

Note, the 2.85" .375H&H case might have to be shortened 1/10" before sizing it in the 8x68S seater die, but probably not. The seater die's dimensions will be kinder to the brass shoulder movement - normally, when using normal die sets. You may not have to use the seater die first - it is best to experiment first.

When the brass is fireformed, the case will expand ahead of the belt to fit the chamber perfectly. Once fore formed, this brass is then capable of handling any 8x568S loading.

This is how I made my 9.5x68 cases when I could not find RWS brass. It took longer to type this out than to make the brass.

I found the RP or Fed. .375H&H converted brass to be roughly 2gr. greater water capacity than 8x68S RWS brass simply necked up to .375" for my 9.5x68. My ballistics were identical between the 20 or so, RWS cases I had and the .376" brass I converted, using identical loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #262963 - 31/03/15 06:32 AM

Nick Harvey had an 8x68S in a Mauser 66. He used this switch barrel in a standard action, but seated his heavier bullets slightly deeper to do so. He said the velocity loss was only small. If I were doing this, I'd simply experiment with powders until I found the one that (hopefully) minimised or even overcame this velocity loss. Also, just beware that RWS revised at least some of their bullets in this calibre to allow it to be loaded to a shorter length. I have details of that change if you're interested, but off the top of my head I think it was the then new KS range.

With the longer action and normally seated bullets, I have never had any trouble reaching published velocities. That makes it a very easy cartridge to load for using 8mm bullets that were designed for magnum velocities, such as RWS and Speer make.

One of the advantages of the Mauser 66 is that, although the barrel is full length for magnum velocity, the telescoping action and the barrel band sling attachment means the rifle does not sit higher on the shoulder than a standard barrel length Mauser 98. Recoil is also quite acceptable in this flat-shooting cartridge.

I think it might have been the A-Square reloading manual that said that, in in former German African colonies this calibre remains the yardstick, (or 'meter-stick'), by which other cartridges are compared. It's not too hard to see why if used for everything below thick-skinned dangerous game.


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #262965 - 31/03/15 07:01 AM

I looked it up for you in a draft article I wrote that I've yet to submit for publication:

The pre-war style H-Mantel bullet for this calibre was reintroduced in 1957 but in 1966, the 33,5mm long H-Mantel, copper capped, spitzer bullet was reworked to become a 30 mm long semi-pointed design. This meant the new loaded round could now be chambered in standard (84mm) long actions. But what exactly is an H-Mantel? It was the inspiration for John Nosler’s very similar partition bullet. In 1960, a full metal jacket, round-nosed bullet was released especially for thick-skinned game. This has been used in the Central African Republic, (where calibers smaller than .375” and 9,3mm are legal on large dangerous game), to successfully take elephant.

After the war, Roy Weatherby made the hunting world sit up and take notice with rounds such as the .300 Weatherby developed in 1948. Cartridges in the .300 Weatherby and .338 Winchester magnum class were proving to have the advantage over older metric cartridge favourites in terms of flat shooting and energy for certain types of big game European hunting. Against this background, the excitement over the 8x68S really began in 1967 when it was “reinvigorated” by RWS with a sensational new bullet. A totally new design called the “KS” (Cone-Point) was then released for the equally new 5,6x57 RWS, a close metric equivalent of the .220 Swift. With the new bullet, this high-velocity 5,6mm (.22”) cartridge was far better suited for shooting the European roe deer and chamois than the standard Swift with varmint bullets had ever been. This was made possible by the double interlock-type bullet design which prevented core shedding even at very high velocity. The 8x68S was the very next round to be released with a one-interlock version of this sensational new KS bullet.

Until recently the 4 classic RWS loadings for the 8x68S were:

• A 187 grn H-Mantel at 3,180 fps produces 4,195 ft/pds energy at the muzzle.
• A 180 grn Cone-Point at 3,250 fps produces 4040 ft/pds.
• A heavier 224 grn Cone-Point at 2,850 fps provides 4,440
• A 196 gn Full Jacket at 3,050 fps provides 4045 ft/pds.

The FMJ bullet doesn’t make the 8x68S a classic “stopping rifle”, but noted Aussie gun-writer Nick Harvey had this to say:

“The 8x68S with solid bullets has never let me down even on the biggest (Australian water) buffalo bull. Typical of its performance capability was a shot taken by Heimo Petzl on a trophy bull standing nicely side on at 150 m. The RWS solid broke both shoulders and dumped the huge beast dead on the spot!”

In fact, I had the honour of talking to the Maestro in person about this cartridge’s performance on buffs. Follow-up shots, Harvey told me, were never needed.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #263000 - 01/04/15 06:56 PM

Quote:

This was made possible by the double interlock-type bullet design which prevented core shedding even at very high velocity. The 8x68S was the very next round to be released with a one-interlock version of this sensational new KS bullet.





About the only thing I would disagree with is the description of th Kegel-Spitz (KS) Cone-point.

It is not a game bullet, fragile and does not hold together. Basically a varmint bullet.

Pity as RWS factory ammo with a 300 gr KS shoots extremely accurate in my .375, virtually a three shot, .38 MOA group at a 100 metres, and with considerable velocity too.

I don't understand the purpose of these heavier for calibre KS buillets, 300 gr in .375, 220 gr in 8mm etc. What are they intended for?

I kniw RWS claims the KS is a game bullet but it doesn't perform, and is too heavy as a varmint bullet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rule303
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #263006 - 01/04/15 09:38 PM

Woodliegh make the 196 grain and 220 grain soft nose for magnum velocities and they also do a 170 grain Hydro for the 8mm.

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DarylS
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: NitroX]
      #263013 - 02/04/15 01:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This was made possible by the double interlock-type bullet design which prevented core shedding even at very high velocity. The 8x68S was the very next round to be released with a one-interlock version of this sensational new KS bullet.





About the only thing I would disagree with is the description of th Kegel-Spitz (KS) Cone-point.

It is not a game bullet, fragile and does not hold together. Basically a varmint bullet.

Pity as RWS factory ammo with a 300 gr KS shoots extremely accurate in my .375, virtually a three shot, .38 MOA group at a 100 metres, and with considerable velocity too.

I don't understand the purpose of these heavier for calibre KS buillets, 300 gr in .375, 220 gr in 8mm etc. What are they intended for?

I know RWS claims the KS is a game bullet but it doesn't perform, and is too heavy as a varmint bullet.




Seems to me my buddy Keith mentioned that the Cone Point in the 8x68S was a 'soft' bullet that failed to penetrate well on moose. He had a bunch of them in factory. I suspect he pulled them all.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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rigbymauser
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263014 - 02/04/15 03:16 AM


The 8x68s does easely +3000 f/sec with a 227grain. One of the best European cartridges for hunting ever made.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #263016 - 02/04/15 03:27 AM

But what is the 227 gr KS meant for? RWS charts usually show a fallow deer, maybe red deer. Plus roe. It would handle roe fine, but why not use a 180 gr or lighter bullet for roe? JMO.

A behind the shoulder lung shot on deer would probably work fine too, if the shoulder is not in the way.

***

Nick Harvey when writing his article on the 8x68S in Mauser 66 used a 196 gr RWS FMJ on water buffalo for good results.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (02/04/15 03:29 AM)


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Rolf
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: NitroX]
      #263132 - 04/04/15 11:37 PM

Gentlemen,

some comments about the mentioned topics :

twist rate and bullet weight:
- Mauser 98, barrel length 58cm, twist 250mm or approx. 1:10"
The rifle shoots very good with 200grs bullets: the Swift A-Frame, the Sierra Matchking and the Nosler Accubond at measured velocities of ca. 820 - 840 m/s

- Mauser 2000, barrel length 65cm, twist 280mm or approx. 1:11"
The rifle shoots very good with the 220grs Sierra SPBT Gameking at a measured velocity of ca. 825 m/s.
The RWS factory load with the 224grs Kegelspitz (cone point bullet)was measured at 835 m/s and shot out of a firing device 5 shots touching at 100 meters (!)

- Remington 700, caliber 8mm Rem. Mag., barrel length 61cm, twist 254mm or 1:10"
shoots very good with 200grs Sierra Matchking and 180grs Barnes TSX (and nothing else)


181grs and 224grs RWS Kegelspitz cone point:
According the the RWS relaoding manual the 181grs bullet was intended for hunting medium sized (german) game like red stag and chamois at longer range. A possible explanation would be that the bullets slowed down after 250 meters and the penetration would be better but bullet mushrooming at this distance would be ensured with a soft bullet.
The 224grs Kegelspitz was intended for shorter distances and heavier game.

I do not use the RWS conepoint bullets in my rifles, I feel that the bonded core or partiton type bullets ae better suited for this cartridge.

best regards
Rolf

@Gert: PM sent


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GPJ12345
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263138 - 05/04/15 02:26 AM

Quote:

Thank you Rolf

I appreciate your input, since it is knowledge you acquired by using the 8x68S in the hunting scenario. I looked at the possibility to lengthen (opening up the back of the action/lengthen the magazine box as well ) I can do it safely...the stripper-clip opening can make way for the longer seated bullet, taking metal away to the back of the action will not compromise strength of the action.
The barrel will at least be 28 inches a type bull barrel (heavy)....the 8x68S rifling twist is 1:11 I am contemplating ordering a 28 inch heavy profile barrel with a 1:9.45 rifling twist (8X57JS)...It will be a special order and more expensive...my rationale for this idea is that a tight twist and large case capacity will stabilize a heavy long bullet even better than the 1:11 rifling twist...I would like to hear your /members opinion on this specific remark...

Do you think it makes sense or will there not be any noticeable effect?

Rolf, I certainly will make use of your offer to assist us to get 8x68S RWS brass, since it is not a common item in South Africa...can I contact you regarding this issue?

Gert




Good day to you Rolf
Thank you kindly for the reply and pm send , I did respond ....Gentlemen , regarding my assumption of a 8x68 barrel with a 8x57JS twist( 1:9.45) ...please feel free to give me your opinion regarding this assumption...
My question: Will there be any improvement in stability/accuracy when using 200-250 gn bullets in this rifling twist in a 8x68 barrel ? I will not hold you to any opinion in this regards...I just want to have a look at your opinions and maybe give me a better insight regarding the order I need to make to receive a barrel from Walther( any other barrel company) Germany since we do not experience problems by importing from Germany unlike orders from the USA...we do not get much from the USA due to ITAR regulations and our South African/Marxist/communist /Arab connections our government have...

I really would like your input in this regards....

Regards

Gert


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93mouse
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263166 - 05/04/15 05:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

This was made possible by the double interlock-type bullet design which prevented core shedding even at very high velocity. The 8x68S was the very next round to be released with a one-interlock version of this sensational new KS bullet.





About the only thing I would disagree with is the description of th Kegel-Spitz (KS) Cone-point.

It is not a game bullet, fragile and does not hold together. Basically a varmint bullet.

Pity as RWS factory ammo with a 300 gr KS shoots extremely accurate in my .375, virtually a three shot, .38 MOA group at a 100 metres, and with considerable velocity too.

I don't understand the purpose of these heavier for calibre KS buillets, 300 gr in .375, 220 gr in 8mm etc. What are they intended for?

I know RWS claims the KS is a game bullet but it doesn't perform, and is too heavy as a varmint bullet.




Seems to me my buddy Keith mentioned that the Cone Point in the 8x68S was a 'soft' bullet that failed to penetrate well on moose. He had a bunch of them in factory. I suspect he pulled them all.




One must take into account that the original KS bullet was nickel plated steel jacket one that took the early awe - it was much tougher than recent KS. See:



A friend of mine is shooting 8x68S for 50 years and is remembering those "silver" KS's - saying those were superb (he was a culler in former Yugoslavia Tito's hunting grounds - shooting 100 red deer a day on occasions).

And just my 2c - I used 8x68S for 4 years with heavy 13g ABC (predecessor of X type bullets made by Hinterberger) - until I bought 9,3x62. Basically you operate with the "same energy level" - 9,3 based on weight, 8 based on velocity. Taking in account that I hunt mainly in woods and my shots are usually well within 150m with an odd 200m shot 9,3 took over no looking back. If I'd be shooting 200m + with average around 250-300m on game under 500 kgs I'd pick 8 anytime, but would pick some lightest contemporary monomental bullets and push them over 3000 fps.


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RobertL
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: 93mouse]
      #263174 - 06/04/15 01:39 AM

Gerd,
I am happy to add my two cents to the discussion as well.
The cartridge 8x68 needs a long barrel – what a short barrel does to it’s performance can be seen from Rolfs experience.
I achieve 835 m/s (2740 fps) with the 200 grains Speer bullet seated to an OAL of 87,5mm (3,44”) out of my ZG47 BRNO in its factory cambering 8x64 and a heavy load of Vihtavuori N160 together with the 600mm long barrel.
Although this performance is not bad and adequate for most game the user of an 8x68 search for better performance.
Twist
When RWS developed the cartridge in 1937 they tested the regularly twist length of 240mm which is about 9,5” just to find out that the 33,5 mm long H-Mantel bullet weighing 187 grains was not stabilized at the velocity of 1000m/s the 8x68 is capable. Reducing the twist to 280mm (11”) gave the requested stabilization.
Therefore I do not think going back to 9,5” again will be a good idea.
The claimed velocity of 1000m/s (3280 fps) was reached out of a 700mm (27,5”) long test barrel. Internal test shows that a barrel length of 600mm (23,6”) reduce the velocity to 956m/s (3136 fps). It should be noted that this where tight test barrels. (see: Schiesstechnisches Handbuch fuer Jaeger und Schuetzen RWS 1940)
I also believe that the today overall length given by CIP with 87,0mm (3,42”) do not justify the cartridges performance. Original advertisements list the cartridge together with the magnum length Mauser action (see page 173 John Speed The Mauser Archive).
With boat tail long bullets like the 200 grains Nosler Accu Bond even an OAL of 94 mm (3,7”) could be used effectively.
When I decided that I need an 8x68 for my Namibian hunt in the Khomas Hochland, I was influenced by an article of Harald Wolf in his Hatari magazine. He made me aware what is much more important than action/magazine length and that is barrel length! My barrel is 750mm (29,5”) and this gives me about 945m/s or 3100 fps for the 200grains Speer bullet. My action is a modified DWM 1909 action with a new magazine box to accept a cartridge of 87,5mm OAL.
Yes, this is limiting me to some shorter bullets e.g. without plastic tips, but the velocity is limiting me to strong bullets anyhow.
Robert


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: RobertL]
      #263175 - 06/04/15 02:08 AM

In my opinion, the 11" twist would be a bit slow for the longer bullets contemplated. a 9 to 10" twist would be better of course, and still nicely handle the lighter bullets if so desired.

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263178 - 06/04/15 04:29 AM

Hallo 93 Mouse, Robert and Daryl S, thank you kindly for the replies, it really gives insight to my question. I think it is safe to say the following aspects are crucial to keep in mind. I have looked at the magnum/fast calibers like the .300 calibers, including the .338 , most of them have a 1: 10 twist...I am the odd one out who really like hunting rifle with long heavy barrels, especially the 8x68S I think needs a 30" inch barrel ...since it is not a walk and stalk rifle but rather a "drive around with" rifle I will use to hunt at longer than two hundred meter distances.

I shot my son , Ruan`s .308 Israeli Mauser at 200 meters and got an excellent grouping ...but must say the bullet drop even with a 145 gn military round is excessive...when adjusting from 100 meters up to the 200 meter zero...this is why I need a 8x68 hunting rifle that will shoot "flat" out to at least 350 meters...I will fit a scope with at least 4-16 x50 magnification for the 8x68 hunting rifle...

While on this subject , what scope magnification will you put on a 8x68 rifle ?

I really want to hear from you members...please.

Regards

Gert


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263179 - 06/04/15 08:10 AM

A good quality 3-9x40 is all the scope necessary for any big game hunting situations out to any range anyone has any business shooting at big game.

If you cannot do it with a 3-9, then more experience is needed.

At most, a 3-10X40 or 3-10x50 with stadia wires will be good. I suggest Leupold, Burris or Swarovski.

Long range shooting at big game brings forth hunting ethics questions in many people.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263197 - 07/04/15 01:06 AM

Good day Daryl S
No, I will not do long range hunting on animals...I am more looking at longer distances hunting up to 300 meters with the 8x68 rifle with heavy bullets for good penetration...the 8x68 will shoot out to 350 meter at a flatter trajectory than the 8x57JS or the .308 that fall substantially at that range..even slightly lighter bullets will still give good penetration...my next question:

The type of stock ?
Traditional stock, straight back with cheek piece? or Ultra modern long range stock like a GRS stock?

I am waiting for your opinion...

Regards

Gert


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263200 - 07/04/15 03:10 AM

As for a stock, straight comb - US style - Boyd's 'Jon Sundra' is a good general design. A cheek piece is not needed, imho. Too, I prefer to shoot with a straighter neck and back bringing the gun up to my eye, so a slightly higher mounted scope suits me better (if the comb is high)than a low scope that makes you angle your face and push your cheek into the comb too hard. Too hard a cheek weld is not my preference. Snapping the gun to your shoulder should have the crosshairs on what you were looking at as you mount the rifle.

The pre-CZ BRNO 7x57 is a good design - for me. Stocked for open sights, but fits perfectly with a scope.



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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263214 - 07/04/15 04:29 PM

Hallo Dryl

I will have to choose between a classic stock and a modern type like a GRS rifle stock. Since it is a longer than normal distance hunting rifle I will not shoot with open sights (I have enough open sight rifles) there will not be sights on this rifle it then seems the logical thing will be to use the GRS stock...since I will only fit a scope...





Edited by GPJ12345 (07/04/15 04:36 PM)


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263215 - 07/04/15 04:38 PM

My 8x68S has a Zeiss 1 1/2 - 6 x scope on it. I like scopes with a lower range power close to 1x .

I agree with Daryl, a 10x is the upper limit I would use on a hunting rifle.

I would use a classic stock. GRS ??? No way on a hunting rifle.



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John aka NitroX

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Edited by NitroX (07/04/15 04:39 PM)


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: NitroX]
      #263243 - 08/04/15 02:21 AM

GRS - to me, that is a target, or varmint stock. I cannot see it having a use nor 'place' on a hunting rifle.

The Mann. appears to be a perfect platform.

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Daryl


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263245 - 08/04/15 03:01 AM

John/Daryl

Looking at the two photos the Mannlicher Schoenauer looks the perfect stock as you pointed out...sleek and beautiful...I will be able to make my own rifle stock duplicating this example...dis-advantage of GRS stock with our weak South African currency it is near impossible to purchase such a stock...maybe I should make sights as well just to round off the whole project. At least I do have time to work on the action ....thank you again for the input , it really is much appreciated ...

Next Question:
Recoil damper/Mercury Recoil Reduction system in the butt of the stock?


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263249 - 08/04/15 03:43 AM

Daryl
I missed something you mentioned earlier....9.5x68..??? Tell me about this caliber...is it a .375 x68??? Photos of this rifle please, some info regarding the history???

Gert


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263255 - 08/04/15 04:50 AM

Gert,
I suggest you read Hatari Times article "The long rifle" by Harald Wolf. I would go for a 28 inch long barrel in a classic mauser profile and classic stock.

I got the article on file but cannot email it until Friday as I'm on the move.
There is range of wildcats based on the x68 case.
Cheers
Y

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Yochanan]
      #263256 - 08/04/15 05:15 AM

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=165772&an=&page=0&vc=1

Submitted by RigbyMauser:

H T Romancing The Long Rifle
2.8Mb PDF

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: NitroX]
      #263259 - 08/04/15 06:03 AM

Yochanan/John
Thank you very much, it really is an excellent write -up about the long rifle....I have a 8x57JS Turkish small ring Mauser with a step barrel 30" long excellent bore..looks brand new, have been standing in a safe for the past twenty five years until a good friend gave it to me...I still need to work out a specific pet load for it, but at least I have one long rifle and will build another 8x68 long rifle....

Edited by GPJ12345 (08/04/15 06:14 AM)


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263275 - 08/04/15 10:36 AM

Quote:

Daryl
I missed something you mentioned earlier....9.5x68..??? Tell me about this caliber...is it a .375 x68??? Photos of this rifle please, some info regarding the history???

Gert




You have mail.
Daryl

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263285 - 08/04/15 06:39 PM

Quote:

Next Question:
Recoil damper/Mercury Recoil Reduction system in the butt of the stock?




Personally wouldn't bother. Just a solid recoil pad.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: NitroX]
      #263295 - 08/04/15 10:00 PM

Yes , John, I think with the solid American Wall-nut blank I have(it really is heavy and solid) and the straight, sleek design stock like the Mannlicher Schoenauer in the photo ...there will be less recoil, I will use a heavy barrel as well, I hope it do not have any dis-advantage on the sleek design of the rifle stock....Daryl, thank you , have received mail, like I said I am impressed with your idea to use the 9.5x68 configuration ....

How appropriate will a silencer be on such a 8x68 rifle?


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263333 - 09/04/15 04:30 AM

Good day members
I will not make use of a silencer....here is the technical data regarding the type of barrel I am going to order for this self build project.

Here is the specifications regarding my 8x68 barrel I am going to order..I presume the rifling twist will be 1:10..I will just make sure bout this small detail...


Barrel blank special rifle steel 8mm 10", Ø=1.26", L=28.19"

External contour: #5130 "Mauser Type E" 28"

Breech thread: System 98 thread

Muzzle details: muzzle hunting style

Chamber details: 8x68 S chamber

Comments/opinions will be welcomed as usual..

Gert


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263364 - 10/04/15 03:10 AM

Good day members

Regarding the seating depth of the 220 gn bullet usually use to get peak performance from the 8x68 ...I looked at the 91mm opening up of the Mauser 98 action from a usual standard action opening..it will be possible to get to 91mm opening up of the action...as well as milling out the magazine well /floor plate from a solid billet to compliment the opening up of the action and facilitating the feeding of the total length of the 8x68 round bullet seated to receive an over all length of 91 mm.

Reading through the posts ...numerous contributors pointed out the need to seat the 220 gn bullet out to an over all length of 91mm ....this type of procedures is going to include extensive milling work ...before I commence I really need your opinions regarding the improved velocities/optimal performance of the 8x68 round in relation to firing a 8x68 round seated to be shot from a standard action...please give me a detailed motivation and discussion in this regards...as I pointed out ...it will be extensive milling work and I really need to be sure there will be a noticeable difference to commence with this procedure...I know the Germans designed the 8x68 to be used in a standard Mauser 98 action....

Regards

Gert

Edited by GPJ12345 (10/04/15 03:16 AM)


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263403 - 11/04/15 01:58 AM

Good day members. I did discussed the opening up of the action with Johan Greyling , my mentor, he suggested I should rather work out duplex loads for my 8x68 caliber rifle and not opening the action . He is sure I will get the required speed by using duplex loads....we in South Africa do not have the many different powders and slow powders you have in your country. By combining a slow powder with a fast burning powder I will be able to get to the velocity I want.

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263405 - 11/04/15 02:30 AM

YIKES!

I do not, will not, attempt that - beyond me & my short 47 years in handloading.

I also find it interesting, that duplex/triplex loading was only attempted once that I am aware of, with the .454 Casull Handgun, and that this practice disappeared within a couple or three years of it's inception/declaration. Why? Is it too dangerous for sporting arms? The .454 Casull handgun was a 60,000PSI gun, yet did people still had trouble with it and the duplex loadings?

I have never heard of this type of loading being successful in rifle ctgs. I suspect if it were, manufacturers would be using it, especially the American ctgs., to have Faster and Faster ctgs. I suspect type of loading is fraught with danger.

Instead, new powders are developed to produce higher speeds and ballistics- like the VV line and some that Hodgdon is marketing, like Leverrevolution, CFE 223, 4007C, 8208XBR and the even newer and slower powders released this year.

I do, however suggest that a suitable action is acquired that will allow full length magnum loading - perhaps a P-14 or Model 1917 Mauser, or a Brevex Mauser action.

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Daryl


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263408 - 11/04/15 04:57 AM




I had always wanted a rifle in this calibre & that I didn't have a fortune in, so I bought a nice early tang safety Ruger M77 with Redfeild scope chambered in 30-06 as my donor gun. I disassembled & removed the barrel & replaced with a Delcour 1-11 twist 24 5/8" chambered in 8x68S & fitted the barrel channel in the stock, stripped the bolt & machined the bolt face to propper diameter & reworked the extractor, replaced the mag. box with a .338 box from Ruger with minimal metal fitting work & none to the stock in that area. Head space was checked with PTG go & no go gauges.
Works great with all factory ammo I have run thru it. My handloads are using Norma MPR driving Norma 227 grn SP @ 2700 fps, have have also loaded some woodleigh 220 grn @ 2600 fps as that is max velocity Woodleigh recomends for that bullet. I am quite happy with how all turned out & that I was able to do all the work.

m4220

Edited by m4220 (11/04/15 05:05 AM)


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: m4220]
      #263440 - 13/04/15 02:09 AM

Growing up and thumbing through the Steyr-Daimler Puch catalog I dreamed of owning a Mannlicher Model S in 8x68s with the spare mag in the butt.

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GPJ12345
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: pacecars]
      #263454 - 13/04/15 03:22 AM

You have a beautiful rifle..enjoy it , you are fortunate to possess such a caliber..like the 8x68 , it really is a caliber I want to build myself...but after all the opinions and advice from the members I am going to wait for a magnum action. My other option is to purchase a .300 H&H Magnum in a good condition form a friend of mine...he is willing to sell this rifle to me at an excellent price , remove the .300 barrel and insert a 8x68S Walter barrel...I am sure the 300 H&H Magnum action will be suitable for me to achieve the required OTL ...

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263455 - 13/04/15 03:37 AM

The .300 H&H extractor for .532" nominal rim size may or may not work with the 8x68's .512" nominal diameter rim.

If the action of the .300 is a Mauser, the claw extractor might work just fine, or a replacement could be found to work.

The magazine itself has a good chance of functioning/feeding properly in my opinion, for what that's worth? HA!

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Daryl


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263456 - 13/04/15 04:47 AM

Hallo Daryl

I think it still will be the best route to go, less metal work, opening the action will be bypassed...I will need to look at the extractor, since I think it is a pre 64 winchester Model 70 . 300 H&H Magnum ...I will go and take a look , just to be sure...


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #263457 - 13/04/15 04:57 AM

It is possible nothing will need to be done to the extractor. By that, I mean it might work perfectly as-is. Too, due ot the slightly smaller rim, the bolt might close over a round "thrown" into the chamber ahead of the bolt,then the bolt closed - that is something to "test" - carefully, you do not want to break the extractor.

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #263514 - 14/04/15 01:25 AM

Thank you Daryl

I will take a look and see if it will be a problem...first I need to purchase the rifle and work from there...I will keep you updated...

Regards

Gert


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #264194 - 26/04/15 03:30 AM

Hallo Daryl/members

I opened up the magazine well of a 98 Mauser action today to accept a 8x68 round , at least I will be able to get to 89.6 mm that is without opening and milling the stripper-clip opening ...according to the knowledgeable members the optimum length is 91 mm to seat the bullet out for optimum performances with a premium bullet. I am 1.4 mm away from the 91 mm seating dept...will this at least give me good performance? I think I will be able to remove at least another 1 mm of the steel to get near the 91 mm objective...I need to keep in mind this is a high performance caliber and I need as much strength in the action as possible...

Regards

Gert


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rigbymauser
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #264203 - 26/04/15 07:16 AM


Here is a nice Steyr Mannlicher Luksus in 8x68

http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=5421361


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #264211 - 26/04/15 09:37 AM

Quote:

Hallo Daryl/members

I opened up the magazine well of a 98 Mauser action today to accept a 8x68 round , at least I will be able to get to 89.6 mm that is without opening and milling the stripper-clip opening ...according to the knowledgeable members the optimum length is 91 mm to seat the bullet out for optimum performances with a premium bullet. I am 1.4 mm away from the 91 mm seating dept...will this at least give me good performance? I think I will be able to remove at least another 1 mm of the steel to get near the 91 mm objective...I need to keep in mind this is a high performance caliber and I need as much strength in the action as possible...

Regards

Gert




Gert- will your allowable 89.6 mm oal length give you similar performance to the 91mm length? I should certainly think so - you would NEVER see the difference on game, that is for certain. Even 100fps will not show a difference over normal hunting ranges - with the same bullet, even to 1,000yards where the difference might be 20fps if that much. I'd have to check the program, just not that interested in those ranges, expect perhaps on gophers or ground hogs - or maybe bad guy targets.
Daryl

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #264216 - 26/04/15 10:27 AM

Gert. : if this can be of any use.
The OAL of a RWS 180 grs. KS cone point is 83,5 mm.
I have loaded 200 grs Speer , 200 Nos. Part. , with OAL s of 85 mm. ; 180 Nos. Bal. Tip at 87 mm , 220 grs Hornadys at cannelure OAL 87 mm.and the longish
Hornady BTHP Match with OAL 89 mm. Using 4350 powders there iwas no compressed load.
I do not have at hand load data of 220 Woodleighs and Sierras that I have used in plains game with devastating effect.
Pulki.


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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: pulki]
      #264246 - 27/04/15 04:22 AM

Thank you Pulki, Darryl, then it seems I am chasing shadows...it then is a myth that seating out the bullet to 91 mm will not give you really a lot more velocity than using ammo bought from the gun shop shelf...still there are people who are adamant about the necessity to build a 8x68 on a magnum action only...????? Will it be better to use a ZZK 602 action than a standard Mauser 98 action for better feeding instead to use muzzle velocity as the rationale ?

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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #264255 - 27/04/15 09:48 AM

If you are able to safely seat the bullet out to a longer OAL - that is, if the chamber has enough leade or freebore to allow the longer length without interfering with the rifling (Jamming into it) - THEN the increase in length, will increase the usable case capacity - but by how much?

That depends.

You would have to weigh the different case capacities to find out, weight-wise, just how much of an improvement you made through long seating.

Seems to me, an increase of 4gr. of capacity, is equal to approximately 50-100fps when both were loaded to the same pressure.

Now, simply seating the bullet out as far as possible and using the same load as before, will drop the pressure and velocity as you have technically increased the powder chamber- this is only if the bullet is not NOW jammed into the throat. If it is, pressure will be increased, possibly to dangerous levels - not a working load any longer. If the bullet can be seated out and still be clear of the lands (throat) by .020" or so, then you may load it to normal pressure and improve the performance, probably by a small amount that may or may not be noticeable anywhere other than on a chronograph and even then, it might show no change.

Lee Factory Crimp Dies allow crimping bullets over shank portions as this system uses a collet which impresses the crimp, not a tightening of the seating die's interior with can cause case buckling.

I do not believe there are any hard and fast rules regards expected improvements. One experiments and takes his chances - might or might not.

Much also depends on the powder used, how efficient it is in THAT case with THAT bullet and THAT primer & as well, how efficient THAT cartridge is in the first place - how close it is to being too big to allow small changes in powder capacity to make any noticable difference in performance.

Playing over seating depths, is almost like playing with wildcats. We IMPROVE a case, straight it's sides and sharpen it's shoulder and raise it's capacity by about 10%-15% well over 10gr. increase and sometimes it only develops 100fps more speed - or perhaps only gives us the same speed as before, but having to use more powder to do it such as my .220 Swift IMP - a full 8gr. increase in capacity, no increase in speed - oh well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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GPJ12345
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: DarylS]
      #264269 - 27/04/15 04:12 PM

Thank you Daryl

Yes , you have confirmed it with your informative reply, I am chasing shadows to think seating out to 91 mm will be beneficial , creating more velocity and flat shooting...I am sure it will create more problems than solutions...I would rather focus on trajectory and learn to know my 8x68 caliber rifle better by shooting it out to longer distances....maybe I should keep in mind some wise words a person once said.."why fix an engine while it is not broken?"
I will keep to a standard 8x68 hunting rifle and enjoy it for what it is intended to do...taking longer shots with excellent penetration on larger plains game...

Thank you kindly to all members for your input to provide insight into this subject.

Regards

Gert


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DarylS
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #264293 - 28/04/15 01:06 AM

Seating the bullet out to properly fit the chamber can be a real advantage in terms of accuracy, especially if one is prone to attempting long range shots.

However long the throat is in your chamber, will determine where the bullet should be seated, for best accuracy, that is. Oft times there is not enough room in a magazine, to seat the bullet out far enough to touch or come close to the rifling origins (throat), thus short seating of THAT bullet prevents it from being seated for it's best accuracy potential. Seated to factory specified lengths is safe, but not optimum for accuracy.

The 8x68S is quite awesome as it is, and needs no 'help' in ballistics. There are always tricks like seating out to fit your action, that can help in the quest for accuracy.

If the rifle and/or shooter is only capable of shooting 2" to 3" at 100yards with the use of a bench or table, that combination of rifle and/or shooter is not a 300yard game killing combo, let alone further than that.


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pulki
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #267225 - 01/07/15 04:32 AM

Gert - Looking forward on an update of your 8x68S proyect.

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Old_Glass
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: pulki]
      #267227 - 01/07/15 06:06 AM

I have a Sauer 202 in 8x68S. Have never fired it, but it would slay anything on legs.

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DarylS
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: Old_Glass]
      #267265 - 02/07/15 01:43 AM

With the appropriate bullet, Old Glass, definitely yes. Depending on the game, one might want to slow it down a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CZ_hunter
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Re: 8x68S caliber hunting rifle popular? [Re: GPJ12345]
      #267980 - 14/07/15 07:07 AM

Obviously the 8x68 is a well thought, hard hitting long range cartridge but for some reason it has never caught my attention. Instead I am very much into 300 H&H, both magnum and flanged.

It also suprised me to see that the 8x68 still has some followers in Africa, as I feel there is a significant growing interest among hunters in the clasic 300 H&H Mag.

Would you confirm this?

--------------------
CZ


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