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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Wanabebwana
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Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones.
      #260688 - 19/02/15 02:44 AM

In a world of global trade and industries where the number one mission is to maximize profits for the shareholders out-sourcing to minimize costs is a standard practice. The problem arises when the manufacturing is done in a country with less than stellar credentials and the origin of the parts are concealed from the end-user.
I have owned one Mark X/Interarms,Yugoslavian commercial Mauser. Compared to a Browning FN I was not impressed. It is however superior to the current Zastava action.
There is now a new offering on the market, a Dumoulin Herstal S.A. sold by Sarco and several others
and used by Dumoulin for their $12000+ rifles.The new Dumoulin A2000 actions are made in China. They have a small gas escape hole in the right receiver wall and low dovetailed and drilled flat bridges. The Magnum size A2000LM has a front bridge extended in front of the recoil lug that I believe allows for the same guard screw spacing as the standard action.The bolt handle is straight and the double square bridges appear higher. The magazine is drop box. More importantly the bolt diameter is described as .750" in diameter to handle cases as large as the .505 Gibbs.This action is different from the Prechtl, FZH, Hartmann and Weiss,Johannsen or older H.Dumoulin Imperial magnums.I do not know where it is manufactured. Attempts to get clarification on this subject from Dumoulin were unsucessful. They published a full page on the A2000 action and extol it's virtues including the fact that it is sent to the Belgian government for proof marks but fail to mention whether it is milled or CNC machined or more importantly where it is manufactured.
Dumoulin A2000 page: http://www.dumoulin-herstal.com/en/mecanisme.htm
You can compare this to The Tradex/Sarco Dumoulin action:
http://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/commercial-dumoulin-m98-mauser-action

The single picture of the A2000 LM action does not show much detail. I would not be surprised if it is also of Chinese or other Asian origin.( Remember the Korean Empire Magnum Mausers?).

Dumoulin A2000 page: http://www.dumoulin-herstal.com/en/a2000lm.htm

When a modern standard or magnum Mauser action such as the German ones mentioned above or the Saterlee, Granite Mountain or Mayfair will set you back $4000-$8000 USD I can understand why in a competitive market a considerably higher profit margin can be realized with a $100? action (based on the Sarco price of $295 retail, the importer/distributor must pay less than that to make it as profitable as other Chinese imported goods).
My problem is when you deal with an established "reputable" firm you expect honest representation of the product you are so dearly paying for.
Al

Edited by Wanabebwana (19/02/15 03:04 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #260690 - 19/02/15 03:19 AM

maybe this helps























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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Huvius
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: lancaster]
      #260693 - 19/02/15 03:40 AM

The common perception of Chinese made goods is that they are inherently of poor quality.
This is so only because the purchaser makes specifications to which the Chinese manufacture the item.
If the order is to make an action of particular design and composition to a price point, the Chinese will do just that. If the same design is specified but with higher quality materials or specs, to a higher price of course, they will make that too.

I agree that these Sarco actions are very attractive as to cost, but makes one ponder... just what is the trade off?

Unless you MUST have a magnum length action (and lets face it, who really does?) I don't know why you wouldn't just buy a 1909 Argentine and build on that.
Similarly, if you are having a big buck custom Mauser built by one of the big name guys, why not just source an original commercial Mauser action? May be a few hundred dollars more on the front end, but on a $10-20K rifle, isn't it worth it?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Huvius]
      #260697 - 19/02/15 06:48 AM

Huvius, Chinese products on the whole a are crap mainly because of the use of poor materials and heat treatment. With modern CNC machines anyone can produce components that are well machined but it is what you can't see that makes the difference and that is material composition, heat treatment and surface coatings, something that the Chinese have far from mastered. The only time that Chinese made products are any good is if the product control and manufacturing methods etc. are controlled by Western companies.

As to the modern Mauser actions, those made by companies such as Prechtl, Mayfair, GMA etc., the quality of which is second to none. They are made to tolerances and with materials and heat treatment methods that companies of a hundred years ago could only have dreamt of. While they don't have any history or they may not be as nostalgic, they are better made in every respect.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Wanabebwana
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Huvius]
      #260698 - 19/02/15 07:10 AM

Yes but the People's Republic's secret formula includes adding ground Rhino horn to the steel alloys to make their guns more potent. This most certainly justifies the extinction of this species.

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DORLEAC
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #260703 - 19/02/15 09:12 AM


I’m not certain that the materials and heat treatments that were used at Oberndorf were inferior at the ones used in making the modern clones.
The arsenals benefited of much more potent resources and of well trained smiths, and, to have used Prechtl, FZH and pre-war Original Mauser or DWM actions, I must confess that I prefer to work with the old ones…without any nostalgia.
However the modern clones I know, even if they are not machined from forged blanks but CNC made from pre-hardened steel are of superb quality.
Now, to have seen and quickly studied the Chinese made Dumoulin/Sarco A2000, I owe to the true to admit that I will never put my hands and lost my time on such an action.
Sorry for my poor English, hope you have understood my thinking.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

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Huvius
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #260705 - 19/02/15 09:50 AM

Quote:


Now, to have seen and quickly studied the Chinese made Dumoulin/Sarco A2000, I owe to the true to admit that I will never put my hands and lost my time on such an action.



Good enough for me!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Huvius
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #260708 - 19/02/15 10:10 AM

Quote:

... The only time that Chinese made products are any good is if the product control and manufacturing methods etc. are controlled by Western companies.

Waidmannsheil.



Which, I assume, is exactly how the Sarco actions are made.
My brother's Chinese girlfriend is in the business of connecting western buyers/companies with Chinese manufacturing.
Everything is scrutinized at every step of production on through packaging and shipping the finished product. If it doesn't meet the buyer's requirements, she finds someone else that will make it.
Just because Sarco or whoever commissioned the production of these actions is willing to accept them as produced is no indication of the ability of the manufacturer to make them better. They are made to a price.
To insist that China doesn't have the capability, skill and materials to produce actions on par with Prechtl, Mayfair, GMA or anybody else is naiive. All of the materials and equipment are available on the open market and a rifle action is a very simple item to produce compared to scientific and tech market demands.
Tell me if those action makers have a shop like this. Doubt it.
http://www.china-machining.com/equipment.htm

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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DORLEAC
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Huvius]
      #260723 - 19/02/15 05:22 PM

You are right, it's just a matter of end price.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

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Tentman
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: DORLEAC]
      #260729 - 19/02/15 07:14 PM

I'm with Huvius on this. I detect some flawed thinking from a couple of other posters - Anyone who believes enough of their own societies propaganda to think that the Chinese (or people of any particular political persuasion/ethnicity for that matter) cannot make products of high quality where demanded e.g. military or space hardware, or required e.g. by price or market is a fool.

The only reason why we mostly see "chinese junk" in our western countries is because our distributors consider us (as a market) stupid enough to buy it - and we keep proving them right.

Unfortunately !!

Foster

--------------------
Southland, New Zealand

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500Boswell
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Tentman]
      #260731 - 19/02/15 08:04 PM

''Unless you must have a magnum action [and lets face it who really wants one ]''
Lots of people want a Magnum length Mauser Action ,what kind of inane statement is that ? its the high cost of them which limits it for most people ,they are Expensive ,you cant build a 505 Gibbs on a standard length Mauser action

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: 500Boswell]
      #260732 - 19/02/15 08:44 PM

There is far more to engineering than just copying a part and making it look shiny. Material composition, heat treatment and surface coatings are just as important. This is why it took the Chinese so long to produce a rocket that would fly for more than two seconds without blowing up, even though they had samples to copy. Maybe one day they will be as good but not yet by a long shot. You only have to look at the cars that they make which are not much cheaper than the Japanese models which they copy but are crap of epic proportions. Unreliable and made with wafer thin panels and plastic components that break when touched. Chinese bearings which look identical to bearings made by Western companies last max 5% of the time of good quality bearings, and are not much cheaper anyway. CV joints which look identical but are made from mild steel and are not heat treated and last in many cases on trip before they blow up. Most of these items are not made for Western businesses but are their own manufactured products that they are trying to sell to the world. Their quality is also very unreliable as samples presented will often be of much better quality than those produced once an order has been placed. You normally can not trace which company made the components as the company who you place the order with will farm the job out to several different companies all over China and when questioned fain ignorance and suddenly can't speak English which they could before. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that the Chinese are capable of high quality manufacture on a large scale is not involved in engineering in any way.
Just because you produce a lot of product does not mean it is any good, just look at the Soviet Union. They had huge manufacturing capacity with a lot of clever people but produced crap.

I would question any rifle action made in China which sells in the West for $295, which means it was probably bought from the Chinese for $100. The material would be complete crap and the manufacturing extremely rough with little to no heat treatment. Mayfair, Prechtl, GMA etc. make actions that are superb and to do that it costs money. I would bet that those companies are not making a killer profit on each action but rather one that allows them to survive without government subsidies.

Buying products made in China at extremely low prices kills of companies which make a quality products. Then all that is left is Chinese crap, and when they know that they are the only ones in the world making a particular product because the competitors have gone broke, the quality really drops off.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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justcurious
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #260737 - 20/02/15 12:48 AM

In 2008 I bought a barelled action what was named Dumoulin A2000.
Configuration the same as the actually discussed action.
I really don´t know if it could be named old or new production.

Anyway that action was the worst one I ever had my hands on. Bolt travel and function of the safety and trigger was far away what can be called smooth.The bolt body seemed to be very soft.
No real interchangeability with standard 98 Mauser parts.

Only the Magazine box was not that bad.

Happily I could sell that chunk one week later.

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Huvius
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: 500Boswell]
      #260738 - 20/02/15 12:49 AM

Quote:

''Unless you must have a magnum action [and lets face it who really wants one ]''
Lots of people want a Magnum length Mauser Action ,what kind of inane statement is that ? its the high cost of them which limits it for most people ,they are Expensive ,you cant build a 505 Gibbs on a standard length Mauser action



That is not what I said.
I said who NEEDS a magnum, not WANTS one. Hell, I want more magnum mausers but sure don't need them!
They are expensive because they are rare. There is no more engineering in them than a std. action, and they are only 1/4" longer so increased materials cost is nil. Millions of std. length '98s were made in various forms but only about 7000 original magnums and many of those in period were used for rifles which didn't need them. My guess is marketing hype of the "Magnum" action was just as powerful then as it is today!

My point is, a 404 Jeffery or a 500 Jeffery or any number of the modern magnums made to fit a standard length action do not necessetate a magnum length action. Of the classics, only the 505 absolutely requires the use of a magnum.

Now, a larger bolt face might be nice, but I am not sure how that can be achieved without reducing the size of the bolt lugs, all other things like outside action dimensions being the same as original. That is one claim of the Sarco A2000LM magnums, increasing the bolt to .750" over .700"

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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dan_oz
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #260885 - 21/02/15 12:38 PM

There are any number of perfectly serviceable rifle actions which would be made for about $100, including products from the US, Japan and Europe.

In terms of Mauser 98 actions, the originals were made of a very ordinary grade of low carbon steel, about like 1030, and subjected to pack carburising, with process controls which would be considered very basic nowadays. It was optimised for this, with the strength based on design (and building in a large factor of safety).

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Nailcreek
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: dan_oz]
      #260925 - 22/02/15 05:12 AM

I had been kicking around getting one, for a "future" project, but I think I'll pass ...

--------------------
Veni, Vedici, Veggie ... I came, I saw, I had a salad.

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500Boswell
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Nailcreek]
      #260946 - 22/02/15 12:30 PM

My Mistake Huvius read it wrong somehow ,will eat a crow burger for that one !!!!

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zimhunter
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: 500Boswell]
      #260953 - 22/02/15 02:33 PM

Isn't it marvelous that the company that has the highest value of all in the world has their prime products manufactured in China and it is my contention that they would never have achieved this position without the Chinese manufacture. They are uniformly congratulated and rated on the quality of their product. This company is Apple Computer. I purchased one of the Sarco actions and it functions as it should. The finish could be improved but it is not as bad as many scarred up rusted military surplus ones I have seen. I have been building rifles since 1952 and have used a lot of surplus Mauser actions and their quality ranged from atrocious to excellant. In point of fact my custom 7x57 is on a 1909 action purchased in the bookstore at TSJC. It has to have the sloppiest bolt fit I have ever seen in a Mauser period. And I assume this to be a prewar production when quality was at a high level at Mauser. It will certainly take less manhours to bring this Sarco action up to standards of custom rifles than it would take to bring a surplus military to the same point . Basically all that has to be done is correct the finish and smooth up the action, the same procedures I have had to perform so many times on militaries. I have actually even built a couple of 1911's using Norinco's as a starting point that turned out pretty darn nice. Do I admire the Chinese - NO their government sucks and I have never had a desire to go there. I do like their food. I am looking forward to having my action built out into a nice 7x57 for a reasonable price. I will be the first to admit it will not be in a league of some of the builders commenting on here but will be a fine using rifle with some neat bells and whistles.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: zimhunter]
      #260958 - 22/02/15 04:43 PM

It must be remembered that nearly every time Apple bring out a new phone, the first version does everything except make phone calls. They also had non-stop problems with their I-Pods, especially the screens.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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buckbrush
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #261486 - 02/03/15 06:18 PM

$295.00 in the U.S. $495.00 to $600.00 in Canada. I cannot believe Tradex is being shady and Lever is being honest about these receivers origins.

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ColoradoMatt1
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #262804 - 26/03/15 01:10 PM

Quote:

The Magnum size A2000LM has a front bridge extended in front of the recoil lug that I believe allows for the same guard screw spacing as the standard action.



You might want to have a look at an original Oberndorf Magnum action...

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ducmarc
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: ColoradoMatt1]
      #262871 - 28/03/15 01:58 PM

to me nothings been proof tested like a military action especially a hundred year old one shot thousands or tens of thousands by every idiot that wore a hat. if there was a heat treatment problem or a real design problem they would have found it look at some of the crap military ammo out there overloaded underloaded cases too short too long bullets out of size volley firing when your barrel is glowing like a forge then poping of a few grenades. that will test it. i'll stick with the old.stuff walmart can keep their 700 remingtons with their extra trigger locktite. brought that other topic cuz i didn't know this was going i'm glad i asked.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Rule303
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: ducmarc]
      #262885 - 28/03/15 10:21 PM

I have no dog in this fight-so to speak. Old Mauser actions range from great to shithouse. Those produced in the latter stage of WW2 are not as strong as earlier models due to short cuts or lack of matterials and heat treating is susspect on some.

I would not want my 416 Rigby, 8X68, 350Rigby or 375H&H built on a standard action. Not saying you can't but if you do, you can't seat the bullets out to get best performance. This especially applies with mono metal projectiles.

To me the mauser actions built for war are a better action then any of the newer custom made jobs. reason is they do not jam up as easy in dusty conditions and are easier to clean when put through dust storms etc.

Chinese made stuff, yes they build to a price but I still avoid things made in China if I can.

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KWJohnston
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Re: Modern Mauser actions. Why we love the old ones. [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #262895 - 29/03/15 06:36 AM

For many years I have read in print and listened to collectors say that Pre war commercial actions were far superior to military actions. They reasoned that all war time actions were rush jobs and lacked the extra time spent to finishing as their peace time counterparts.This is what I took to be fact for a long time.

Recently however, I listened to a debate between custom gunmaker guild members about this topic. It seems that the majority believe wartime actions were equal to or possibly BETTER than peace time actions. The fact is, Military actions were subject to a variety of inspections and testing. The factory work was also overseen by military officers providing quality control that was absent before the war.

Sure I have seen some rough military actions. However, the best of the military actions surpass the quality of workmanship we see on modern Remingtons, Ruger, and Winchesters.

The debate is still open, please share your thoughts on this...

--------------------
"Tell him in the morning in our tribe we always shoot them twice. Later in the day we shoot them once. In the evening we are often half shot ourselves." - Ernest Hemingway

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