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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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John303
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
French Gras ??
      #260343 - 12/02/15 02:08 PM

Picked up a Gras mainly for the action, the price was right - free.
Has been converted into a shotgun but I would like to convert it back into a rifle.
Metal is quite good but the stock is pretty much toast. Have any of the members played
around with one of these?
Looking for some insight and pics of their "custom Gras" if available.
Doesn't need to be the original .43 cartridge - I'm sort of mulling 45-70.
Thank you for any input on this. --- John

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: John303]
      #260350 - 12/02/15 03:18 PM

Good luck, John. Can't help as I know nothing about them.

What action we are familiar with, compares in strength?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9036
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #260370 - 12/02/15 08:54 PM

I had once an eye on a gras rifle in 32 ga or 14mm shotgun as they were termed than because 32 ga is close to the 500 BPE case head. so I thought it would be a good action for a sporting rifle project in 12,7x60R 500, an old german hunting cartridge using the 500 BPE case cute down to 60 mm.
have for years now another project with a barreled Chassepot carbine action still for the 11mm Cassepot needle fire cartridge and hope I can move it this year. my idea is to make a teutonic jaeger rifle with this.



as you may know the Gras is a modification of the Chassepot needle fire rifle and most of the Chassepot rifles still in french hands after 1870/71 were transformed into Gras rifles.




the Chassepot /Gras action is very similar to the Mauser 71 action and you can compare the two. the Gras shoots a 25 gramm lead bullet with 5,25 gramm blackpowder and a V0 of 430 m/sec when the Mauser 71 shoot a similar 25 gramm bullet with 5 gramm and a V0 of 425 m/sec. this makes the Gras round the number 2. in power of all military blackpowder rounds after the 577/450 Martini Henry.


the gras have a rich history as a hunting rifle in africa but because most times in the hands of native's this is unwritten.

imho, this are Gras carbines



and this is a Gras rifle



you will find the Gras action having no safety! the only factory made safety on this action I am aware is the safety for the Saxon transformed M 73 cavalry carbine. this was made by reworking captured french cassepot rifles and chamber them for the 11,15x60R Mauser cartridge.
the Saxon carbine have a spring loaded pin on the left side of the receiver going through a hole and block the bolt. the safety is moved with a lever on left side visible on the pics








my idea for the chassepot jaeger rifle is to make some kind of trigger safety.


if your gras is in 32, 28, 24 or 20 bore there is probably enough meat the shotgun barrel can be rifled and you shoot the german blackpowder shotgun bullet cartridge in this rifle. when you give me chamber and barrel dimension I can tell if it possible.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (13/02/15 12:04 AM)

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: DarylS]
      #260376 - 12/02/15 11:03 PM

Theyre about the same as a Mauser 71, aren't they?

--------------------
.

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: French Gras ?? [Re: Ash]
      #260380 - 12/02/15 11:33 PM

not realy
the mauser 1871 is something developt after study the chassepot 1866 very intensive. the chassepot was the very first modern bolt action when the older dreyse bolt action is much bigger and more in the size of the old style musket's. the mauser 71 follow the general concept of the chassepot but bringing new things like cook the mainspring when open the bolt and the mauser safety also.

here m 71 carbines





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: lancaster]
      #260382 - 13/02/15 12:26 AM

I meant the Gras is similar to the M1871

--------------------
.

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John303
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: Ash]
      #260386 - 13/02/15 01:47 AM

The Chassepot, Gras, 71, are look alikes - the mechanics are somewhat different,
but you can certainly see the lineage.
My Gras is a 12 gau with a 30+" barrel so either leave it alone / replace the
barrel completely.
Thank you Lancaster for the wealth of information it is & will be helpful, obviously
not just to me. The safety is interesting and not beyond a handy man to fabricate.
I have no doubt there are some fine "customs" on the action out there, I'd be
surprised if Mr. Dorleac doesn't have one tucked away.
--- John

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John303
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: John303]
      #260600 - 17/02/15 12:58 PM

I've been trying to find a rifle barrel, would have preferred an original.
I don't think that is going to happen in the near future - as expected.
Happen to have a nice rifled 20 gau. barrel just sitting around so I'm
tempted to go that way. Any input / thoughts will be appreciated.--- John

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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9036
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: John303]
      #260618 - 17/02/15 06:51 PM

your 20 gauge barrel must have an inside dimeter between 15,70 and 16,20 mm. give it to a barrelmaker and let it rifling to a 16,75mm grove diameter. than a 3" 20 ga chamber and and you have a german bore gun.



there measurments for brass and for paper cases, the upper ring is allways 16,75mm, the lower rings measure 16,05mm for paper and 16,65mm for brass cases. the 20 ga cats head bullet itself is 20 mm long.






--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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John303
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: lancaster]
      #260664 - 18/02/15 01:18 PM

Lancaster - etal, Thank you for all those pictures and comments, you have some good looking old guns to be sure.
I have a 71, 12gau. takedown which is quite nice and several 71-84s still in rifle form, none full military.
The 20gau. barrel is already 3" chamber. Getting any smithing done around here is difficult and time consuming. We have a shotgun only deer season, so I think I'll just leave it a slug barrel.
All take care --- John

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FrankS
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Reged: 06/10/08
Posts: 114
Loc: New Iberia Louisiana
Re: French Gras ?? [Re: John303]
      #260961 - 22/02/15 06:29 PM

John303, there was a thread on the castboolits@gunloads.com forum about converting the 1874 Gras to 45-70. Fairly detailed but every time I try to do a search for that particular set of posts I come up empty. Maybe you will have better luck. Something to think on as a regular grass bolt has a counter bore and a 45-70 case fits as though it was made for it. And don't forget these are left hand threads on the 1874 Gras actions. You could easily use trapdoor loads with no problems. I have the 1874/M80 Gras artilliary musketoon with the brass furniture and rather than a nice wall hanger it would be something neat to take hunting.Frank

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