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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1465
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Scottish Hammer Rifles
      #259748 - 01/02/15 04:18 AM

A couple of pictures of my fine Scottish rifles.
Charles Ingram .500 3" BPE and a Stephen Grant .577 3" BPE
Both are shooters as well as beautiful historic collector pieces.
- Mike








--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

Edited by 3DogMike (01/02/15 06:50 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #259754 - 01/02/15 05:50 AM

nice! - or better than nice, actually. Well done.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #259766 - 01/02/15 07:24 AM

Beautiful rifles!

Welcome to the forums. You certainly have made an elegant entry. Please join in and post often.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ash
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #259778 - 01/02/15 10:01 AM

Really nice, mate!

Weight? Regulated for? How do they shoot?

Cheers.

--------------------
.

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3DogMike
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: Ash]
      #259790 - 01/02/15 03:22 PM

Hello Gents.......
Thankyou for the warm welcome, I have watched these forums for quite some time and finally decided to join.
Have enjoyed BPE, Nitro Express, and "Bore size" rifle shooting for years. Developed the "British Rifle" bug when I was based at RAF Bentwaters, UK back in the old days.

The .500 3" Ingram is 8lbs 13oz with 28" barrels, BP proof marks ".577ex" indicate that it was done after the introduction of the updated proof standards of 1887. There are no Ingram records extant to narrow down the date any better.
Rifle shoots very nicely with 59.5grains of H4198 and a 440 grain paper patch cast from 1:30 tin/lead

My newly acquired .577 3" Grant was made in 1873, Jones under lever, with keyed forend retention. 26" Damascus barrels, weighs 8lbs 14oz, and I'm told it likely was regulated for an early .577 3" 160-480 load.
Not shot it for groups yet, too cold here to spend a lot of time at a bench, but it works great with 160 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 F and a 500grain paper patch of same 1:30 tin/lead. Come Spring I'll really get to work on a load.

Have to make mention here that Graeme Wright's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle", especially the updated 3rd edition, is (as most here know) an invaluable resource for loading the various BP and Nitro cartridges.

Cheers,
Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

Edited by 3DogMike (02/02/15 03:34 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #259805 - 02/02/15 02:27 AM

Beautiful! Wonderful acquisition, and welcome to these forums! With your fantastic taste in fine guns, you will make friends very fast!

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Huvius
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #259814 - 02/02/15 04:28 AM

Very nice rifles!
Where in Colorado are you? Always looking for someone to go shooting.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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TH44
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: Huvius]
      #259844 - 02/02/15 10:59 AM

An excellent pair of rifles, one quite early, the other later

The earlier Stephen Grant, with higher hammers, non-rebounding locks with "stalking" safeties and the lovely percussion style fences is particularly attractive, with nice rose and scroll engraving showing the patina of age

The .577 3" is probably the most desirable calibre for a Black Powder double. My own .577 3" is much plainer

Good luck shooting them

TH44

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3DogMike
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: Ash]
      #260129 - 08/02/15 11:49 AM

The .577 Grant is an interesting piece; very light weight for a .577 3" BPE at 8lbs 4oz (original post was a typo at 8lbs14oz).
The rifle has a test target fired by Ken Owen back in 2010 with H4198 and a 530grain Minie and he noted that he thought due to the weight that it might have originally been a .577 Snider. Need to see if Atkin, Grant, and Lang want to respond to my enquiry as to any info on this rifle.
My guess is that the regulated 1870's period .577 3" load was one of the light ones with a 480grain HP express bullet and maybe 140-160 grains of powder, though I do not have access to a copy of Fleming's "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" to check this.
For historical interest I'm going to try starting with a 480grain paper patch HP bullet, 120grains of Swiss 1 1/2 and work up to regulation.
For Nitro for Black I'm going to closely duplicate Ken Owen's load with H4198 and use a 550Paper Patch lead.
Either way, It ought to be interesting.

Basically I think this one is a nice light "stalking rifle" with a man size bore.

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

Edited by 3DogMike (08/02/15 11:56 AM)

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TH44
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #260168 - 09/02/15 12:17 PM

Hi Mike

I hope you did not mind me using your pic of the Stephen Grant for the rebounding and non rebounding locks thread

With regard to your comment about the rifle being originally a .577 Snider, Hoyem does not give a start date fo the .577 3" so my initial thought was that you were correct with such an early rifle

Bill Fleming does, however give a pre 1874 date, possibly for the coiled brass cartridge

I have attached the relevant pic for your info (Thanks and credit given to Bill Fleming) if you want more, let me know



I have an 1877 Williams & Powell in .577 Snider, as well as a .577 3" by Hollis

If you choose to use the 4198 load please ensure you USE MAGNUM PRIMERS!, I did not on one occasion and had unburnt powder everywhere and a bullet stuck up the barrel!

At 8 lbs 4 oz you will certainly know you have fired it, (with a standard load of 160 grains of powder behind a 560/590 grain bullet!), your intention to start light is good, but be aware that reduced loads refer to lighter bullets, not less powder

Good luck with your endeavours, care with the 4198!

TH44

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3DogMike
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: TH44]
      #260176 - 09/02/15 02:40 PM

TH,
Many thanks for your help and encouragement. I really appreciate your effort to post the photo reference from the Fleming book.
I am a firm believer in mag primers for this type of loading whether smokeless or black. My usual "go to" is the Federal 215M and then appropriate use of foam backer rod with smokeless/Nitro for Black; or in the case of black I use any necessary combo of card wads, lubed felt wads, and lube cookies......and NO air space.
Of course Graeme Wright's book is an invaluable guide to safe and successful reloading of these rifles as well.

I have spent quite a while searching the Internet and just found a digitized copy of the J. H. Walsh book "The Modern Sportsmans Gun and Rifle" printed in 1884. Mr. Walsh was an editor of "The Field" and his book is quite revealing.

Here:
https://archive.org/details/modernsportsmans00wals

There is direct mention of ".577 Bore" Eley cartridges loaded with 140-480 (5 Dram) as well as 140-502 and 160-502 (6 Dram).
The stated velocity of the 5 Dram load was 1616'/sec and the 6 Dram load was said to be 1739'/sec, both out of 26" barrels. Nice that!

I have ordered a "Steve Brooks" 480grain paper patch HP mould specifically for this rifle, and "Buffalo Arms" offers .577 solid 500grain swaged lead bullets for paper patching.
- Buffalo also offers 550grain solid lead for paper patch which might be just the ticket or a Nitro for Black work up. (Both companies are in the USA)

You are quite right......recoil with an 8 1/4 lb rifle will be "brisk" to say the least. Still likely not as heavy as my 1902 Webley actioned .577 3" single with 90-650 equivalent. That rifle tips at 11 1/2 lbs and Reloader 15 gives an honest 1950'/sec over my chronograph.
Damn the luck tho, there just aren't any wild buffalo, Tiger, or Gaur living here! (It does knock the stuffing out of water jugs and watermelons....)
Cheers,
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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Huvius
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Re: Scottish Hammer Rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #260178 - 09/02/15 03:59 PM

Mike,
I would really like to see your Webley!
Mine is just about done. It is a big action and I thought of going with the 577 but instead decided to go 500.



--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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3DogMike
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Bullet for the Grant .577 BPE [Re: Huvius]
      #261855 - 07/03/15 07:56 AM

For the Grant .577; just received my custom mould from "Brooks Moulds", Walkerville, Montana, USA. Steve Brooks' moulds are widely renowned amongst the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle shooters for their quality and precision workmanship.
This is a 480 grain Paper Patch Hollow Point cast from 1:30 tin/lead. My research leads me to believe that this very light weight 1873 vintage Stephen Grant was originally made to handle an early Eley-Boxer .577 3" coiled brass cartridge that was loaded with 5 Drams and a 480 grain bullet at about 1616'/sec or so.

I've test fired the rifle with NfB and that 550 grain solid lead bullet that you see to the left of the brass, now time to try the original period BPE load.
The 550 grain Paper Patch solid was sourced from "Buffalo Arms", Ponderay, Idaho, USA; it shot well with 59 grains H4198, Fed215, foam backer rod, and a card wad under the bullet. All paper patching is done with 100% rag onionskin weight paper about .002" thick and lubed with SPG black powder lube.
Load was not chronographed due to winter weather, will be done when we get a nice Spring day.

- Mike



[image][/image]

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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ChrisPer
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Re: Bullet for the Grant .577 BPE [Re: 3DogMike]
      #261877 - 07/03/15 07:37 PM

That is a lovely pair of rifles 3DogMike.

Tell me - are the Grant hammers engraved at all? My similarly early Turner has lovely engraving on the locks and action but nothing on the hammers. I thought one or both must be replacements, but if it were the case that they were sold with plain hammers when all other parts were engraved...

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=243949&an=0&page=0#Post243949

Does anyone know how common it was that hammers needed replacement?

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Hammers Engraved [Re: ChrisPer]
      #261895 - 08/03/15 09:59 AM

Both the Grant and the Ingram have engraved hammers.
No idea whether some were originally sold with plain hammers......maybe George Caswell at Champlin could answer that?

[image][/image]

[image][/image]

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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3DogMike
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Clan Grant [Re: 3DogMike]
      #261897 - 08/03/15 10:08 AM

A bit of history:
.......no, I have only some distant MacNab ancestry.
- Mike

[image][/image]

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DarylS
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Re: Clan Grant [Re: 3DogMike]
      #261898 - 08/03/15 11:17 AM

Interesting - I've been told the MacGregors were neighbours and fighting friends of the MacFarlanes on my Grand'dad's (Mom's) side of the family.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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AkMike
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Re: Clan Grant [Re: DarylS]
      #261903 - 08/03/15 01:57 PM

Does that book happen to mention the Clan Butter or Butters from the north?

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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3DogMike
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Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: AkMike]
      #261940 - 09/03/15 07:10 AM

Mike,
No mention of "Butter" or "Butters" in this book only because apparently they did not have a specific Clan Tartan; according to another source the Butters used the regional Perthshire Tartan.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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AkMike
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Re: Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: 3DogMike]
      #261999 - 10/03/15 07:29 AM

I'm half Butters and IIRC Gramps said that they did have their own tartan. But he's long gone and I have no ide where all his info disappeared to. They were from the northern end (no idea what city is nearby) and the clan house was torn down to make way for a dam. Everything's under water there now.

Thanks for the information!

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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DarylS
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Re: Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: AkMike]
      #262048 - 11/03/15 02:48 AM

Here's mine- seemingly kept alive on a larger scale - was news to me. A short search found this.
http://clanmacfarlane.org/

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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3DogMike
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Re: Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: DarylS]
      #266790 - 22/06/15 08:47 AM

Another Scottish maker:
Have just acquired a "James Burrow" of 116 Fishergate, Preston .500 3" BPE
28" steel barrels, rebounding locks, Jones underlever, London Proof on or after 1887

Seems to be in pretty much original unrestored/unrefinished condition. Wood is solid with probable original finish, some faded colors left on the action, barrel black is thin and largely faded to a mottled brown patina. Lockup is on face & tight as new. Forend will need to be tightened back up against the frame knuckle but that's about it.
Initial test with 136grains Swiss 1 1/2, card & lube wads, and 340grain hollow point paper patch from a Steve Brooks mould show great promise.
- Mike









--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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470evans
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Re: Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: 3DogMike]
      #266792 - 22/06/15 09:27 AM

Very nice rifles, congratulations!

I see George Caswell has a nice looking Scottish rifle for sale. I don't think I've seen one from this maker before.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2635

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DarylS
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Re: Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: 470evans]
      #266793 - 22/06/15 10:45 AM

What a wonderful rifle for deer, B-bear, moose and elk & grizzlys, Mike!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Old_Glass
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Re: Scottish Rifles & Guns [Re: 3DogMike]
      #266811 - 22/06/15 03:03 PM

Quote:

Forend will need to be tightened back up against the frame knuckle but that's about it.



Could be a soak in raw linseed oil will bring things back to close to original dimensions.

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