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Postman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258616 - 05/01/15 04:56 AM

i recall seeing that video....... how could I possibly describe it other than "gosh dang fast!!!!". Don't remember who the shooter was, but he was sooooooo fast with a double, it made me want to just hang it up and crawl into a hole. Damn! that dude was FAST!!!,

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: eagle27]
      #258617 - 05/01/15 04:57 AM

Quote:


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”




He does say most dead hunters are found with empty guns, BUT he doesn’t say most dead hunters are found dead with an empty double rifle! I would bet that most hunters killed by dangerous game were using bolt rifles simply due to the fact that there are far more hunters using bolt rifles than doubles. I would bet also that at least more than a few of the bolt rifles were jammed and not empty.

Quote:

I think the quote above taken from the article is quite relevant and as I mentioned in my first post on this discussion, it is all very well doing comparative tests on the range to see which is the fastest to fire aimed effective shots but quite different under stress in the field. The double is just not that easy to reload when on the move. If the gun is a not an ejector it has to be tipped to empty the chambers or the empty cases have to be 'plucked' by hand and then the gun held in such a position so the new cartridges dropped into the chambers will stay there until the gun is closed. All the while the double gun is broken open with barrels facing in a different direction to the stock and lock. Try this on the run in brush or over uneven ground. I guarantee the double user will be focused on his gun and not the animal or likely the ground he is traversing if he tries to reload on the run, or, he will stand and reload before following the PH or arrive at the new position and then complete a reload.




The above paragraph is very true but not relevant to the article we are discussing! The subject is stopping a charge, not chasing an animal through the bush. In a charge situation you normally stand your ground and shoot till the threat is over.

The tests of the licensing bodies that test the shooting skills of people wanting to be issued a PH license are testing the way I described for stopping a CHARGE. Even in a follow-up of a wounded the rifles are reloaded before one goes into the weeds, and if the animal charges the drill is still the same stand and shoot. The testing bodies thought originally that the doubles would be at a disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooters in the charge stopping test, and found in short order the double was at no disadvantage to the bolt shooters for two shots, but in fact faster. So they tried the double loaded and the bolt with one in the chamber and three down to see if that was better for four shots than the double. It turned out that the double were faster for shot two, and about even for the most part for shot three and faster again for shot four.

I will admit that I think in these test of PH applicants those who already owned double rifles may have been far more experienced than the young men shooting a conglomeration of bolt rifles, many of which may have been prone to jamming. However all our tests at the DRSS were shot by experienced shooters of both types of rifles and most long time hunters of all game including dangerous ones.

Loading while running is just as hard for the bolt rifle guy as it is for the double rifle guy. Even in a standing charge stopping, the bolt rifle must be re-loaded after every shot with working the bolt, while the double fires two shots before a re-load, and in a charge situation one is static while re-loading only after the second shot. The tests have found that the double is about even with the bolt for shot four after a re-load, and faster again for shot four.

If these tests are so invalid, how would you go about testing the timing?

In the actual charge stopping one would have to have a timer with a stop watch behind both shooters timing his shots, and then look at the bullet holes on the animal which would be indistinguishable because they would all be on the same animal.

The range testing has it’s draw-backs but there is no other way to do it IMO, and the article we are discussing was a range test.

The fact is with everyone shooting at his own target and trying to shoot faster than everyone else does create stress on the shooter. We had people jam their bolt rifles, we had people drop cartridges while re-loading but out of 20 shooters all shooting simultaneously the top three were double rifle shooters, and the accuracy scores were better for the doubles for four shots than most of the bolt rifle shooters. The bolt shooters who scored better in the accuracy test portion, were way back in TIME behind all the double shooters.

The fact is if humans are involved with mechanical things, crap happens, and there is no way of testing anything that is 100% reliable!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Postman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258618 - 05/01/15 05:08 AM

So if it were possible to build a Robinson Arms self loader in a DG caliber with a stock shape that under incredibly heavy recoil wouldn't create a dental work / broken cheek bone nightmare for the shooter at a suitable weight that allows a full day of carrying it in the field all day, we' d have something to recon with on the speed front! Failing that, I'm going to continue with my double affliction / addiction, and use my fancy bolt rilfes for long range caribou...... just sayin.........

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Postman]
      #258619 - 05/01/15 06:50 AM

Quote:

So if it were possible to build a Robinson Arms self loader in a DG caliber with a stock shape that under incredibly heavy recoil wouldn't create a dental work / broken cheek bone nightmare for the shooter at a suitable weight that allows a full day of carrying it in the field all day, we' d have something to recon with on the speed front! Failing that, I'm going to continue with my double affliction / addiction, and use my fancy bolt rilfes for long range caribou...... just sayin.........




.........................................Agreed!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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DarylS
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258621 - 05/01/15 09:58 AM

LOL - spot-on, Postman

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258645 - 05/01/15 11:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”




He does say most dead hunters are found with empty guns, BUT he doesn’t say most dead hunters are found dead with an empty double rifle! I would bet that most hunters killed by dangerous game were using bolt rifles simply due to the fact that there are far more hunters using bolt rifles than doubles. I would bet also that at least more than a few of the bolt rifles were jammed and not empty.

Quote:






Personally I would like to know who "all these dead hunters" are irrespective of whether the rifles are loaded or empty. To me this is made up bullshit statement and lacking any evidence value.

Just how many clients have been killed in the last few decades to justify this claim?

As for the number of PHs killed, well again, I would like to know where the "statistic" comes from, how about some numbers and evidence to back up the claim ie by the writer.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258646 - 05/01/15 11:24 PM

So from this debate I am guessing the Fuchs magazine bolt action double rifle is the perfect DG after all.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258648 - 05/01/15 11:30 PM

Quote:

Recently, a rapid-fire video was presented here at Nitroexpress with a variety of bolt guns as well as a double rifle being fired rapidly on falling plates, by a countryman of mine.

Watching this video, it is READILY apparent that the DR, a .470 no less was MUCH faster than the fastest blot gun. Too, the bolt .450 showed a once-in-a-lifetime jam, exactly when the second shot was needed!

This lad was VERY good with both systems, but excelled with the DR, as he should!

I'm sure you guys know the video I speak of. Perhaps someone remembers the title and can thus find it to perhaps re-post here in this thread.

Talking the various points, good and bad is fine, but seeing is quite - visual.




The video is probably the one on this thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #258657 - 06/01/15 01:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”




He does say most dead hunters are found with empty guns, BUT he doesn’t say most dead hunters are found dead with an empty double rifle! I would bet that most hunters killed by dangerous game were using bolt rifles simply due to the fact that there are far more hunters using bolt rifles than doubles. I would bet also that at least more than a few of the bolt rifles were jammed and not empty.

Quote:






Personally I would like to know who "all these dead hunters" are irrespective of whether the rifles are loaded or empty. To me this is made up bullshit statement and lacking any evidence value.

Just how many clients have been killed in the last few decades to justify this claim?

As for the number of PHs killed, well again, I would like to know where the "statistic" comes from, how about some numbers and evidence to back up the claim ie by the writer.




Agree--don't know of or have heard of clients with empty rifles that are dead--know it happens but guessing its about a rare as hearing a truthful statement from Obama..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258740 - 07/01/15 05:29 PM

Seventh post and finally read the advertisement for a shooting school, oops article.

Quote:

“If you take a shooter that fires a gun with their weight on their back leg or from a neutral stance they’re not going to be fast with any big gun, bolt or double,” Monty says. “You have to have an aggressive stance with your weight forward so that the gun doesn’t push you off balance.” Learning to improve stance makes you faster with any hard-kicking rifle that you shoot from an off-hand position, and it reduces muzzle rise.





Yep they should learn how to shoot.

Quote:

“Most shooters do better with a bolt gun immediately because that’s what they’re used to shooting,” Monty says. “They understand the mechanics. That doesn’t mean they won’t be able to shoot a double well, but they need to learn proper mechanics for shooting a double rifle, which are different than a bolt-action.”
.
For the shooter that is very skilled with both rifle types and has been trained to quickly shoot both a double and a bolt gun, Monty says that the double typically has a speed advantage for the second shot, but that’s assuming you have a shooter who has trained extensively with both guns and who has the proper stance and handles recoil effectively. Such shooters are very rare, and for the majority of the shooting public, our personal skill sets make us faster with one rifle type.
.
I fully understand this because I attended Monty’s school myself. Because I have shot many, many more bolt guns than double rifles, I was naturally slower with a double. Simply put, the mechanics weren’t there, and I needed help from a professional to help me walk through the process and learn the proper technique.





... maybe they should just try shooting a side by side or under and over shotgun on clays. Other than recoil, and the need to aim with a rifle, same 'mechanics'. Some time on clays would mean no need to pay for a shooting course.

Quote:

I can consistently deliver two aimed shots with my .450-400 Nitro Express Heym double in 1.1 seconds, but it’s rare that I can touch 2 seconds for two shots with my .500 Nitro Express Heym.”





Doesn't the same apply to say a .416 Remington and a .500 Jeffery? See my earlier comment on a thread about recoil and "logic".

Quote:

“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles."




What a silly statement. I thought the writer was talking about "aimed" shots.

And the fact is a made up "statistic" anyway.

Quote:

No matter which action you choose, learning proper technique and practicing often is the key to saving your life.




Yep every safari is a death defying, facing black death charges experience, so this shooting school is a must before a safari.

Enjoyed my seventh post rant.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ash
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Posts: 1652
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258768 - 08/01/15 04:10 AM

Doesn't matter what caliber, and I've never used a double, but bet I can get 2 aimed shots off quicker than a semi auto .22lr..

Just aim and....pull both triggers

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.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ash]
      #258779 - 08/01/15 06:30 AM

Quote:

Doesn't matter what caliber, and I've never used a double, but bet I can get 2 aimed shots off quicker than a semi auto .22lr..

Just aim and....pull both triggers




......................................................Right!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Ash
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258780 - 08/01/15 06:35 AM

Having said that I am NOT going to ever try and double any, regardless of caliber! I like shoulder and stocks too much to risk damaging either

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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ash]
      #258811 - 09/01/15 01:09 AM

Quote:

Having said that I am NOT going to ever try and double any, regardless of caliber! I like shoulder and stocks too much to risk damaging either




Bought a used 10 gauge double shotgun years ago--took it out to test fire it. Pulled the trigger and both went off, certainly got my attention..

Quick trip to the gunsmith and all is well..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258813 - 09/01/15 02:22 AM

Old John, speaking of the late John Buhmiller, used to toughen up for his African rifles using a Rigby SXS .450 BPE. Cast bullets were cheap to make and Dupont BP also cheap and easily available, thus the use of the black powder rifle.

In order to increase the recoil to similar levels as the smokeless guns, he loaded his cases full of BP and 500gr. cast bullets. He also tied a block of wood between the triggers so both would go at the same time. Pulling the front trigger would set of the left barrel as well - doubling the recoil, of course. He noted this left him in fine shape for shooting the smokeless guns, such as the .505 and .450 magnums he used quite considerably.

He also noted, (as I foolishly found myself when a kid) that trying to pull both triggers at once, usually left one looking for bandades and/or stitches for the top of the second finger. The recoil drives the gun rearwards, which drives the back side of the front trigger into the top of the second finger. The result is usually a deep cut - was for me, and I had only fired a pair of 2 3/4" 1 1/2oz mag. loads while out European Hare shooting. I missed.

I realize the double pull noted in the above post was in jest, but just in case someone thought they'd try it, I mention this.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Englishman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #259178 - 19/01/15 05:30 AM

I think the point made here is that at the end of the day it is all down to what you feel comfortable with, a point that has not been covered here is the fact that a bolt rifle can never be as well balanced as a double (side by side that is) and also that for a given barrel length a double is 6" shorter and quick to handle than a clumsy bolt rifle, given the better balance it follows that when under duress a shooter would stand more chance of hitting the target with a double, this is ,of course, ignoring the fact that most shooters that use a bolt gun seem to also favour a telescopic sight, BUT, I have seen video's where an inexperienced shooter using a double for the first time? has pulled the front trigger again! Not the best thing to do if you want to survive! It is all down to what you are familiar with. I have never heard of a charge that started from more than 25 Yds away, so that does away with the perceived advantage of more than two shots. Having a magazine full of rounds (4or5) also tends to make a jumpy shooter open up at a more doubtful shot as well, but that is also due to the cost of a 21 day safari and the need to take a trophy home.

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