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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257080 - 23/11/14 03:43 AM

Koch, Jagdwaffenkunde, 1899:


--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257082 - 23/11/14 04:44 AM

Quote:


In this advertisment Dreyse offers "Pürschbüchsen in drei Größen/ Stalking rifles in three sices" 1886. So maybe these are the anounced ones.








imho, could be no other action then this we talking about...
so I was right with my theory about a short, intermediate and long action for the patent rifle

no, dont look for the german patent but must be easy to find if Schmidt is right in his book with the "23. Februar 1874" for the patent action and the "28. august 1875" for the rifling insert or "Rotationsstück". the idea of a short rifled part to convert smoothbore muskets was old than and coming from his father. I understand that this patent was for an exchangable insert what in the end means that sporting guns with "Rotationsstück" were made after august 1875.

btw cwilson, dont forget your beautyful double rifle

when we talking again about the double guns there is an interesting pinfire in auction in denmark just now http://www.lauritz.com/de/auktion/jagtge...asmus/i3635263/

its the first pinfire double I have seen with barrel swing out to like a dreyse.
I would set it in the time before 1864




























Edited by lancaster (23/11/14 05:09 AM)


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257083 - 23/11/14 05:21 AM

Thats an little point that makes we wonder- you find easy the Patent for the "Rotationsstück", but not the patent for the earlier action.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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cwilson
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257150 - 25/11/14 02:52 AM

Lancaster:

Thanks for the information. I took a few more pictures of the action and proof marks. Let me know if these help any.










I am impressed by the amount of engraving on these guns. Most of them that I have found pictures have engraving which would be ornate by todays standards and very expensive to accomplish.


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257153 - 25/11/14 03:57 AM

Here is one more very nice Dreyse - given to Wilhelm II in 1896.

"591: Zündnadel-Versuchspistole, Sömmerda 1866, Geschenk an Kaiser Wilhelm II.

Limitpreis: 9800 Euro
Achtkantiger, gebläuter Lauf. Gezogen. 12mm. Brünierter, eckiger Schlosskasten. Spannen und Laden durch Drehhebel. Schlosskasten bez, "F v. Dreyse, Sömmerda 1866". Holzgriff mit graviertem Schild "Seiner Majestät Kaiser Wilhelm II. gewidmet von Dreyse, Sömmerda, 1896. Sehr interessant. Unberührter Fundzustand. Eigentlich unbenutzt und neuwertig, jedoch durch Lagerung einige Rostflecke. 39,5cm.
Zustand: II"

http://www.stauffer-auktionen.de/unsere-aktuelle-auktion/schusswaffen.html



--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257161 - 25/11/14 06:49 AM

interesting pistol, the Dreyse heirs give a lot of experimental guns as a gift to the kaiser who again send this guns into the zeughaus in berlin where they allready had a great collection of needle fire guns. this is described in Wirtgen "Das Zündnadelgewehr"



I wonder how this pistol came in private hands

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257162 - 25/11/14 06:57 AM

cwilson, you have a great double rifle

I see it made in 1893/94, it have correct german proof come in use in 1893 and bears the name of franz von dreyse who died in 1894. excellent double rifle in a great caliber also the very first Dreyse double having a stock with pistol grib and till now the F. v. Dreyse gun with the highest serial number. can you show in steps how to lock and unlock the firing pins?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257169 - 25/11/14 08:10 AM

Quote:

Thats an little point that makes we wonder- you find easy the Patent for the "Rotationsstück", but not the patent for the earlier action.



Simple: The German Deutsches Reichs Patent Law became effective in 1876 only. Before, patents or privileges were a matter of the many independent German states like Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Wuertemberg, Baden, Brunswick and many even smaller ones. All had their own patent laws, habits and archiving. Probably there never was any patent for the pre-1870 designs by Nikolaus or Franz von Dreyse. Soemmerda and the Dreyses were in Prussia. Prussia as a rule never patented anything that might be of military importance to the realm.


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #257193 - 25/11/14 07:04 PM

This could be an answer. But i still hope to find something......

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (25/11/14 07:13 PM)


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cwilson
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257203 - 26/11/14 03:46 AM

I am not sure how to cock/uncock the triggers.. I see no other way than to dry-fire the gun. I think the gun cocks both triggers when the action is opened and closed. There is no button or de-cocking lever that I can see. But I am not an expert at all. Here are a few more photos.









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DarylS
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257206 - 26/11/14 03:59 AM

That being the case, snap caps would be in order to protect the pins.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: DarylS]
      #257213 - 26/11/14 05:33 AM

Quote:

I am not sure how to cock/uncock the triggers.. I see no other way than to dry-fire the gun. I think the gun cocks both triggers when the action is opened and closed.



As such actions are usually cocked by the opening lever, close the gun with both triggers pulled and easing the underlever forward. You will notice the mainsprings pushing the lever to the closed position.


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #257215 - 26/11/14 06:42 AM

there are three different levels how to make a safety

1. you block some part in the gun action, usualy the trigger
2. you block the firing pin
3. you release the main spring and that bring the highest level of safety

Dreyse hunting guns allways release the main spring and I suppose your double rifle will do it also.
you see here the old Dreyse double gun. the "firing pins" in fact the needle holder are cocked but when you push the lever between the firing pins you loose the casing or unit which hold the firing pins and main springs. at once the casing is coming back, uncock both main springs and now the double gun is complete safe! when you push the casing back into the receiver you cock both main springs again...




on your pics it looks to me that your double have some kind of cover panel at the rear end of the receiver and when you push the button inside the red circle I made here you also release both firing pins. then the cover with firing pins inside must coming back but you cock the main springs again when pushing the cover against the receiver.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (26/11/14 06:45 AM)


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cwilson
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257216 - 26/11/14 08:45 AM

Lancaster:

I will look at that area again. It did not move when I tried several times. It does look like a "button" in the pictures, but I have not been able to get any movement from it. I will try again.

Thanks to all for your input and your help.


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257239 - 27/11/14 05:01 AM

maybe a problem for a gunmaker
do you intend to shoot the double riflein the future?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #258936 - 11/01/15 02:11 PM

a 0,71" Schlussspiegelpatrone, SN looks like 6702
this is one of the late made - this means after 1870 - special order double guns shooting a real needle fire paper cartridge
dont think the blueing is orignal but none the less its a guns I have an interest for myself.










and a very late hammerless 20 ga
to bad the serial number is not visible but I will try to investigate it
you will see the barrels dont turn to the right side anymore but move forward and break very similar to the Collath guns. this Gun must be made between 1890-93 and 1899 and a lot of things were changed but it still have the Dreyse DNA.












Edited by lancaster (11/01/15 02:30 PM)


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #258999 - 13/01/15 12:37 PM

Have pics of a double rifle needle fire for you, Lancaster. Have to wait until next week though, sorry!

--------------------
.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #259000 - 13/01/15 01:51 PM

Quote:

Have pics of a double rifle needle fire for you, Lancaster. Have to wait until next week though, sorry!





Needle fire..?
Can't wait to see this one.

Seen any pinfire double rifles there Ash?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Ash
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Posts: 1652
Loc: Australia
Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #259020 - 14/01/15 12:26 PM

No pinfires, sorry Tinker!

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.


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Norman4
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #259248 - 21/01/15 10:29 AM

What a fascinating machine. No less amazing is the number of examples you folks have managed to post. Your forum is very educational! Thanks you!

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Norman4]
      #259358 - 23/01/15 03:29 AM

small size patent action rifle in 11mm - maybe something like the 11mm Reichsrevolver(44 Russian)- action looks to short for 11,15x37R

N.v.Dreyse SN 36067 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=46424984
probably after the dead of Franz the factory was against named Nicolaus von Dreyse/Sömmerda?

remember 37531 "MUN. & WAFFENFABR SOMMERDA" is after 1899 so this is a very late "Dreyse" named gun, must be close to this date.







































.
.
.


Franz v. Dreyse 12 ga Hammergun http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=464577652
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=464577652

I see it in the early 1990s made probably before and beside of the transformation of the needle fire action into the different hammerless design's
















































obviously the same typ of hammergun like this Büchsflinte vor sale in germany





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.
.

another needle fire gun have only this pic, SN looks like 14537








Edited by lancaster (23/01/15 06:29 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #259591 - 29/01/15 01:37 AM

look at the pics again and the patent rifle above have a medium size action. the 11,15x37R is very possible and this could be also the cartridge for this beautyful full stock medium size patent rifle I found here http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=52313&iid=263287&aid=50


SN 24189 caliber 9mm

they have sold once also this double barrel needle fire pistol

http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=5641&iid=285361&aid=52

SN 147 , caliber 47 ga

special thanks to Elizabeth Hogan
Customer Service Representative| Rock Island Auction Company



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (30/01/15 06:53 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #259791 - 01/02/15 03:44 PM

coming back again to the "Baden Customs" patent rifle


because I think again about the SN I have for two of them of the four known to me. this model is rare and allmost nothing is generally know about it. it seems safe this rifle was in use between 18767/1877 and 1910 than sold as surplus to member of the Baden customs. its not a sporting gun but was the first and only rifle with the Dreyse patent action made in greater numbers. serial numbers I have are 13429 and 13457 but its unlikely a gun so rare is made in this numbers. the Baden police had 500 needle fire rifles made by Spangenberg & Sauer and C.G. Hänel and the police was spread over the country so 200 customs needle fire rifles would be a mass. I forget the idea that needle fire revolver are into the SN range of sporting gun but this special patent rifle possible can be in it.
this would meaning the Dreyse SNs actually reach 134xx in 1876-1877

find pics of another Baden customs gun for sale in the united states lately http://www.antiquefirearms.com/pages/402.htm
and there is a pic showing the bolt head

the bolt head is plain without an old style air chamber or a Beck seal. obviously the rifle shooting a special paper cartridge with a "Schlusspiegel" paper wad in the base like the 0,71" Schlusspiegel shotgun cartridge. the cartridge "für Grenzaufsehergewehre" was available in the RMS/Dreyse catalog loaded with bullets and blanks for 5 Mark/100.
100 Dreyse military rifle cartridges cost 4,50 Mark so the additional price was maybe for the more complicated Schlussspiegel base.

.
.
.

when cleaning up my hardware find something more







this looks like SN 6680, no doubt made for the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge easy to see because there are no extractor hooks up and down and no notch on the barrels end for hooks. nice to see were the discs on the breech face going into the chambers. this is called the "old model" gun but in fact the real old model made before 1870 had an air chamber like the military needle rifle to helping burn the paper cartridge and take some of the black powder residues for making the gun funktioning a longer time.

this was the real old model



this is the air chamber


the old model gun fire a self consuming paper cartridge and the air chamber make it more or less gas-tight, many times probably less gas-tight



air chamber on the military rifle


the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge use probably the same barrels like the 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridge with only a different chamber. this caliber was similar to 16ga Lancaster CF shotguns most used in germany before the great war and after
.as you can see the "old model" had only plain discs because the Schlussspiegel cartridge must have some kind of thick paper base the so called "Schlussspiegel" pressed against the plain disc and made the barrels end gas-tight when fired. of course it was not burned and must be remove when loading again or shot out with the next cartridge.


this is an interesting gun I dont have a SN
its marked N(Nicolaus)v.Dreyse, the son of Franz having the firm between 1894 and 1899 and made after 1893 as you can see on the U+crown proof mark in the action. its a 0,74" Randschlusspiegel but the gun have common centerfire gun extrators and probably use 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridges with center fire shotgun primer something also offered in the Dreyse/RMS ammo list. the SN must be somewhere between 31000 and 37000. the breech end again have discs reaching into the barrels end like a Collath gun to make the action stronger.





another "old model" double gun, it was in the trade between 1891 and 1893 so geting the V/crown proof. the action having an engraving I read something like 0,685" Schlussspiegel cartridge and there is more not clear to see. notice the gun is marked N.Dreyse so made before his nobilitation in 1864. there is "1857" visible - maybe the serial number.














the patch box is something I have seen on a single shot rifle in investigation just now so made original by Dreyse.

.
.
.


"14" ga so probably a 0,71" Schlussspiegel for sale once in 2007 this are the first pics where the original ramrod/cleaning rod is to see





its actually not long enough but maybe there is some extending system

.
.
.

0,70" Randschlussp. SN 12247 for sale in the US
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=465493760










































Edited by lancaster (02/02/15 07:19 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #260639 - 18/02/15 01:25 AM

get the number for this 16 ga/ 11,15x60R combination gun

its SN 30535




http://www.vdb-waffen.de/de/gebrauchtwaf...reyse&o=neu

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #261616 - 04/03/15 03:46 PM

the DR in 11,15x60R Mauser on the modified action we had seen here before is now for sale

UNUSUAL F. V. DREYSE DOUBLE RIFLE WITH CARTRIDGES.

SN 34230. Cal. 11mm Mauser. 25-3/4″ Bbls are gold inlaid “F. V. DREYSE SOMMERDA” on silver wire inlaid bordered area on full length matted rib. One standing, one folding leaf rear sight is dovetailed through rib, as is a silver bead front sight. Bottoms of bbls are stamped with German imperial black powder proofs and SN. Unusual action with in-line coil spring strikers, a holdover from needle fire design, is combined with a long steel forward pivoting underlever similar to that found on Collath guns. Moving lever to the left and back cams bbl set forward away from breech discs, and then pivots them to the right side, at the same time cocking action. Gun automatically closes when lever is returned to forward position. “Cal: 11 mm” is engraved on water table and exposed when action is open. Firing pin housing, trigger plate, and other metal parts are engraved with exceptionally well cut, various sized open shaded scroll. There is more scroll silver wire inlay on rib extension. Both triggers are set. Trigger guard is of horn. Nicely fiddle figured European walnut stock measures 14-1/4″ over engraved steel buttplate with trap, which covers space for three cartridges. Stock has small right hand cheekpiece and point pattern checkering with mullered borders at grip, as well as checkered panels that extend along toe line, and around sling loop matching that on bottom of bbls. Drop at heel: approx 2-3/4″, drop at comb: approx 1-5/8″. Weight: 6 lbs 15 oz. LOP: 14-1/4″. Also included are 35 custom cartridges and 5 empty brass in Winchester Western boxes marked “11 MM Mauser 387 GRS”. CONDITION: Good, as partially refinished. Bbls retain a considerable amount of what appears to be their orig blue, with considerable light frosting and thinning overall. All other metal parts are cleaned to coin finish. Stock retains nearly all of a hand rubbed oil finish over light marks, checkering cleaned up. Bores are very fine, strong rifling throughout, dark in grooves at breech ends. Action works smoothly. Triggers set. Older custom cartridges are slightly tarnished. A really neat lightweight rifle. 4-54053 (3,000-5,000)









http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2353-373/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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