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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Huvius]
      #256118 - 31/10/14 01:35 PM

Back down to $1400.
Somebody come up with a good reason that I should buy one of these...
i sure as hell look at them enough!
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=15324

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2106
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Huvius]
      #256152 - 01/11/14 01:42 AM

I could not get along with a hunting rifle without a rod.
Here is what I like.





The top one is a 16 bore, the bottom is an 8 bore.
I have a 12 bore in the works now.

Edited by szihn (01/11/14 01:44 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: szihn]
      #256155 - 01/11/14 02:05 AM

12 is the bore I would prefer, Steve, although at one time I thought of replacing my 14 bore barrel with a 16 bore barrel. I talked this over with Dan Pharris and he seems to think the 16 all-round bore rifle for North America. I concur - it's a great bore size, but I have seen buddy Keith's big 11 bore smash moose to the ground, the .735" ball driven by 150gr.2F.

I know how my 14 bore staggers moose, with it's .68 cal. ball, a step or two, then they drop. I am assuming the 16 to be quite similar to that with a .65 cal. ball. Indeed, the 16 bore was the smallest size Forsyth recommended for India's dangerous game, tiger, buffalo, elephant and bear.

Nice, Steve, very nice indeed, but so small compared to the 2 bore single you built.

How's that, Huvius? Those Pedersoli 12 bores are VERY nicely appointed, indeed, especially for a 'factory' rifle. I'd say underpriced for what you are getting, for sure. You could not, or rather I should say, it would cost me over $1,000.00 for the parts, just as it did for my own 14 bore back in 1986.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #256157 - 01/11/14 02:31 AM

As I am want to get carried away when excitement overtakes me, I'll go against what they are recommending for ball and patch, and suggest, due to the shallow rifling and 75" twist, I'd prefer a .710" ball and a .018" to .020" patch. You need some compression in the bottom of the grooves or the powder gasses will blow past, burn the patch and foul the bore excessively.

There are ticking & denim materials (8 ounce) that meet this criteria, just as in the .018" range, you can find heavier linen which will 'answer' well and perhaps the best. these are COMPRESSED measurements- take calipers with you to the fabric shop, linen, or 100% cotton only. If using caliper for measuring, squeeze the tines between fore finger and thumb - as tightly as you can - that gives a compressed measurement. Do not trust 'packaged' materials - they do not measure 'crushed'. I find OxYoke .018" to be only .015" thick - it's too thin. their .020" or .022" might be OK - I'd expect .003" to .005" thinner than they actually say. As I noted, I use .030" in my `14 bore with a .682" pure lead ball - how would THEY measure that? It is .025" in my mic - crushed by the round anvils- ratchet turned. My brother's mic measures .001" differently than mine and all 3 of my dial mics give .001" different readings incrementally. I use the medium for all my measuring with calipers. The differences are due to different ratchet spring strength in the mic and different anvil widths in the mics. It does not take much, to make a .001" difference in measurement.

The muzzle will need re-crowing, but that is simple - I can explain it and show demo pictures.
I'd say, buy it and let the gun begin.

Just remember, velocity follows closely with pressure. The biggest or greatest reason not to increase the charge in this rifle, will be loss of accuracy or too much recoil, not too much pressure.

The almost 1 1/4" round breech will be very strong - I'd suggest their modest suggested powder charge is reflected in the useless .010" patch they suggest, or them not liking the recoil. I think perhaps they fouled very badly.

You may find 120gr. or 125gr. gives you all the fun (recoil) you want, with a 530gr. ball. These should give about 1,200fps or so, maybe 1,300fps. If mine and loaded more tightly, as I am want to do with my own rifles, I'd probably hunt this for elk and moose in the 140gr. to 160gr. range, but that is me. Start low- I suggest 3 drams, which is 82gr., get to know her and go from there - let accuracy and clean shooting be your guide.

If mine and using soft lead balls of .715", I'd be using a .022" patch. I suggested easier loading combinations which should work just fine with moderate powder charges to about 130gr. or so.

Using 2f powder, this rifle should develop virtually the same pressure at 1,500fps as a .58 or .67 cal rifle or my .69 at the same speed. To get that in a .58, you would need only 120gr.2F, or perhaps 130gr. in the 16 bore. My own .69 (14 bore) used to give me that speed at 165gr. 2G in 1986 with the GOEX at that time and my barrel was 31" and 1 1/8" across the flats, thinner than this one. I used that load up until 3 years ago when I found the 200yard sight's impact was higher- 220yards, so I've dropped the 'big' moose load to 140gr. for a zero to the 200yard sight at 200yards. Impact is now the same as before, so I expect velocity is similar as well - 1,500fps to 1,550fps or thereabouts. Good speed, point blank range of 125yards and great killing power! The bore guns rule!

Enjoy!

Nice rifle - I am impressed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #256167 - 01/11/14 06:36 AM

Uncle! Uncle!
OK,Ok,Ok... I give...
Its on the way.

Too bad I didn't buy one earlier. Could have powder coated some balls orange and had my own episode of Punkin Chunkin!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2106
Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Huvius]
      #256191 - 02/11/14 01:37 AM

Yeah Daryl, compared to that 2 bore they all look small.
I had a guy in the shop when I was working on the 2. He was bragging about his 460 Weatherby. I told him I could use the 460 as a ram rod to load the 2 bore, and he laughed.

When I showed him that I could, he stopped laughing.

The 2 bore would almost let a golf ball in. If I had whacked it with a mallet that golf ball would have gone into the bore.

All in all I prefer a good 62 or 66 cal for my "All around north American gun".
If I were never to shoot moose, big bears or buffalo I would be just as happy with a 58 cal.
Still there is something to be said for a 12 bore. Millions of hunters go afield every year with 12 gauge shotguns after white tails. You need not load for hippo or elephant. A 12 with 90 grains of powder will be a white tails worst nightmare within 75 yards, and will not kick very hard.

It's funny how the shotgun manufacturers all are going to "slug barrels" with rifling these days and saying it's new and improved. Well they are improved, in that they do shoot slugs way better than a smooth bore at longer ranges, but they are now "new". They are just coming back to technology that has been around for 250 years.

Edited by szihn (02/11/14 01:39 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: szihn]
      #256193 - 02/11/14 03:46 AM

Exactly - ignorance is bliss for advertising companies.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #256862 - 17/11/14 03:16 AM

OK, I have my new rifle - will get pictures up soon.
Overall, I am very pleased with its appearance and feel. Handles nicely, wood is of good layout, fit and finish is quite good for a $1500 muzzle loader.
I also bought a .715" roundball mold with it. The balls I cast a week ago are measuring out at .7175" and can be started with a .010" cotton patch. They are pretty much pure lead as I emptied out my pot as much as possible before casting these up. I hope the mold purchase was a good move. The sprue is quite pronounced and I wonder if this can upset accuracy if it is not loaded on center with the bore?
The crowning does cut the patch so I will have to smooth it out as Daryl mentioned.

I have yet to measure the internal dimensions of the bore but can say that this rifle has VERY shallow rifling. The Dixie Gun catalog says .004" but I doubt it is that deep although in a big bore barrel, it is harder for me to judge just by looking and feeling. They say .724" bore and .732" grooves. I think it is tighter than that as my .7175" balls just slip down the bore with no perceptable wiggling.

So, with that tight fit, I am thinking of using some 12ga felt wads soaked in lube, sort of making a "wonder wad" on top of a card or veg over powder wad to insure there is enough lube in the system since it looks like that mold will not allow a very thick patch. Pretty much like a wad column in a BP cartridge. Also, I am going to powder coat some balls to see if I can forgo the patch altogether since that can eliminate leading and will give me a more snug fit of the unpatched ball going down the bore. I will go over to castboolits to see if anybody there is having success powder coating round balls.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Huvius]
      #256868 - 17/11/14 04:26 AM

Interesting Huvius. Nothing good has EVER come from using that thin a patch. You are right in that more lube will be needed - as you will not be able to load the next one unless the fouling is softened by the lube. A .010 to .015" patch in that size gun will not carry enough lube by itself.
Some guys have luck with wads, others not.

My own 14 bore cares very little for imperfections in the load such as added 'stuff', but does not need them.

What I mean by this, is that as with modern rifles, the larger the bore, the more imperfections the gun shrugs off as being immaterial.

When loading, mount the sprue straight up or as straight up & centred as you can get it before pounded the ball into the muzzle. Slight imperfections in that will not mean anything.

You might also look into getting Jeff Tanner to cut you a .712" mould. It will be cut at .712" and cast at .710" to .711".
Jeff's moulds do not have a sprue cutter, so I use a pair of "cupped" wire strippers to pinch, then twist the ball and the large sprue comes off leaving a perfectly round ball that does not need orientation at the muzzle for loading. The odd ones needs a swipe with a coarse rasp to smooth the little tit of lead sticking up.



Balls cast with a Tanner Mould


Jeff's moulds fit standard handles.
Oh yeah - one further thing - I now spray ALL of my moulds with MsMoly for bullets or Lyman's spray moly for bullets(same thing) or use Rapine's "Mould Prep" on my mould blocks. The moly or the graphite in Mould Prep prevents lead sticking to them and eases the ball or bullet's release from the mould.





--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #256902 - 17/11/14 01:39 PM

Huvius
I have a .690" ball mould in my collection. I have to cast up a bunch for a friend of my son by Thanksgiving. I can cast some up for you while I'm casting or I will loan you the mould.
The .690 ball will allow you to use a much thicker patch.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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DarylSModerator
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Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #256908 - 17/11/14 03:36 PM

I think the mould in the picture is the .725" mould.
I have a .710 mould that should cast pure lead at about .708".

If you'd send me your address - PM, I'll mail it to you. I am not using it at the present.

In my opinion, a .690" (14 bore) ball is way too small. I am currently using a .684" ball in a .690" bore with .010" to .012" rifling, .710 groove to groove. That puts the ball I use, a total of .026" to .028" smaller than the groove diameter. .013" to .014" per side.

In that rifle I use a minimum of a .0235" patch with light loads and a .030" denim patch for my hunting loads with a pure lead ball. With a hardened ball, I use a .675" ball in the .690" bore and the same .030" patch wich I feel, loads easily - for me. The lands do not cut the ball, there is not blow-by as seen by scorching on the patch (brown streaks)or burn marks. The fired patches are re-usuabe - more lube and load them again.

With that math in mind, that would equate to a .732"(your groove dia) - .708"(pure lead from a .710" mould") = .024", ie: minimum of .012" per side just to get to the bottom of the grooves - in shallow or deeper rifling, THAT combination will not seal and gasses will blow past the ball, burning the patch, fouling the bores and destroying accuracy. With a .708" ball and at least an .018" to .020" patch, you should be able to seal the bore, shoot cleanly (no wiping) and give acceptable accuracy. An even tighter combination will give better accuracy yet.

The first step is re-crowning the bores. A tapered stone held in an electric drill quickens this process considerably and takes only a few seconds to get the initial angle, finished off with emery or 320 wet/dry paper around the stone, then your thumb with same paper then crocus cloth. That is what I would do, were the rifle mine. I would be interested in getting the best accuracy from it, that was possible for me to accomplish.

From what we've seen here from other posts in the past, it might take considerable powder to get good accuracy as well as good regulation. The higher the pressures (greater the powder charge) involved, the tighter the combination must be.

Wish someone around here would buy one of those - I'd love working with it after the success I had with the .58 DR.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: New Pedersoli Gibbs Afrcan Hunter .72 Rifle! [Re: DarylS]
      #258402 - 30/12/14 02:48 PM

Oh, Hell....
Now Dixiegunworks has the Pedersoli Gibbs .45Cal match rifle on sale for $1550
Way less than I have ever seen offerd by anybody retail or used.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8297&osCsid=m37sam61290alf7ipga9rmtv00

Looks like this Spring will be spent muzzle loading. That won't suck...
Hopefully, since I have a number of GG and paper patch molds and sizers, I will be able to come up with an accurate bullet.
Of course, my club only has muzzle loading silouhette matches for mountain man type rifles shooting roundballs. Man, if I can get that 12bore to shoot respectably, that would be a hoot!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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