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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #252123 - 14/08/14 08:33 PM

this must be made in the early 1840
a muzzle loader needle fire doublegun for paper cartridges



















it shows many features the later breech loader have.
sold for unbelievable 1400 euro 2011 in denmark
http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/half-s...on-dr/i2339951/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:44 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #252150 - 15/08/14 05:08 AM

Wow!

It would be great to see the muzzles.
Also drawings of a cartridge...


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #252175 - 15/08/14 04:05 PM

the cartridge must have been very similar to the military rifle cartridge but with a shot load insteed of the bullet


here you see the different military cartridges starting with a roundball in 1841

I think allways there have been some paper not completely burned in barrels what would become a problem after some shot so you have to clean the gun while hunting from time to time. it was the moment in gun history when you have to make the step from muzzle loading to breech loading firearms.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:44 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #253525 - 14/09/14 12:01 AM

another bolt action hunting rifle in 11,15x35R
http://www.progun.de/de/shop/langwaffen/...reyse&o=neu







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:45 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255061 - 12/10/14 10:03 PM

and here is a similar .22 long rifle rimfire gun with a scalled-down action for sale
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=5129933












--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255723 - 26/10/14 01:57 PM

Not a Dreyse.. But nice!

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2298-369/

NUSUAL, HIGH QUALITY H.G. REIF (LEIPZIG) BOXLOCK NEEDLE FIRE MUZZLELOADING SHOTGUN.
SN NSN. Cal. 16 ga. .675 Bore diameter. This fine German creation appears to be based on Abraham Adolph Moser’s early muzzleloading needle fire patent, and has 31″ fine etched Damascus bbls with makers name “H. G. Reif in Leipzig” gold inlaid on raised, flat rib within silver inlaid scroll terminated device. There are inlaid gold bands and arabesque scroll at breech ends. The action consists of a pivoting lever with rotating silver knob mounted in forend, which when swung to the rear retracts long needle firing pins and cocks boxlock type internal hammers mounted above trigger plate. Action has pin type cocking indicators which protrude through breech iron, and studs with notches, one on trigger plate finial, the other in forend, which hold cocking lever in either front or rear position. In forward position mechanism can be fired. In rear position it is “safe”. This gun was made to fire a self contained combustible cartridge, similar to the Dreyse with priming behind projectile. Metal work is embellished with exceptionally fine engraving consisting of gold inlay accented shaded scroll on breech section with hound and hare chase scene on rib extension. Breech iron with more gold inlaid scroll has hunting scene of Jaeger with hound pursuing a fox. A hunting dog is gold inlaid on trigger guard, which has silver inlay of bushes in foreground. There are other gold accents on scrolled trigger guard, operating lever, and trigger plate finial. Steel trigger guard terminates in scroll carved ebony grip. Fine stump figured and lightly marbled European walnut stock features an ebony buttplate with molded sides, right hand cheekpiece, sliding patchbox, and sling button. It is embellished with excellent Germanic carving of acanthus leaves and flowers shaded by checkering at grip and with a greenman/ lion peering from each side panel. A full relief carving of hunting dog and various game is behind cheekpiece framed by acanthus scroll. Forend terminates in stylized wolf’s head with ebony and mother-of-pearl eyes. A brass headed ramrod is held by two plain pipes on bbl, one mounted with broad sling loop. CONDITION: Fine. Metal parts retain an overall brown to gray patina. Stock retains nearly all of its orig varnish finish with numerous minor marks and scratches. There is a small crack in left side panel. Carving shows light wear at grip, but is excellent overall. Cocking pivot base washer is an old replacement, and is loose. An exceptionally interesting German transitional gun of very fine quality, worthy of further study. 4-51429 MGM89 (3,000-5,000) – Lot 2298



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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #255726 - 26/10/14 02:06 PM

And a Dreyse rifle!

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2299-369/

EXTREMELY RARE DREYSE FAUCET BREECH NEEDLE FIRE CARBINE.
SN 8354. 19"; octagonal bbl. Blade front sight, adjustable rear sight, rectangular sling swivel, underneath bbl. Left side of bbl has two Gothic “M’s” at breech below SN 8354. All parts have matching numbers. Crank spindle at breech opens to receive a cartridge loaded through port on top of bbl. It has a checkered walnut stock with sling stud on bottom. Fire blue trigger. Steel trigger guard. PROVENANCE: Journal article entitled “The Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle” By Larry B. Schuknecht outlining the development of this rare gun. CONDITION: Good condition, retaining about 15% original blue with light surface pitting that is fading to brown, fire blue on trigger is still visible, wood on stock. Stock is well worn with nicks and dings and a crack from the wrist up to the breech on the right side. It retains original color, and nice wood grain. There is flattening on the checkering. Bore is dull and lightly pitted. Trigger guard has been professionally repaired. Mechanics are very good. 4-51022 BWS158 (1,500-2,500) – Lot

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #255880 - 28/10/14 03:51 PM

this small Dreyse carbines are not realy rare here.







http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2299-369/

they were probably used for indorr target practise and shooting little pest like the Flobert rimfire salon or garden guns. I have not mention them here till now because they are not real hunting guns. the action have some similaritys with the military rifles. the bolt which hold the neddle looks like a scaled down military bolt.
the rifles shooting the 9,4mm Dreyse Damengewehr (Lady's Rifle) cartridge

the short cartridge, number 29 here


http://www.ch-munition.ch/sammlung_papierpatr/papierpatr_clips/12.jpg
http://www.ch-munition.ch/sammlung_papierpatr/sammlung_clips.htm



here is another of this Saloon rifles in the next hermann historica auction
a E. F. Büchel in Mehlis 8 mm rifle for shooting with primer pills made around 1860



http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu/schusswaffenneu.html


such small needle fire rifle were made also in england in this time for the Eley needle fire cartridges in 75, 90 and 110 bore, imho not powerful enough as a rook rifle


again in the next HH auction
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu/schusswaffenneu.html

here you have more about the eley needle fire cartridges




http://www.oldammo.com/april09.htm

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255882 - 28/10/14 04:04 PM

a 12 mm needle fire hunting rifle by Pauly & Cie., Paris made around 1860


in the next HH auction in november
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu/schusswaffenneu.html
a break down action with a button under the rifle to unlock the forearm. when you push the forearm in the off position the barrel break.
Pauly was the master where Dreyse as a young man come to know about breech loader.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255885 - 28/10/14 04:47 PM

Excellent!

Thanks for the photo of sectioned cartridge.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #255924 - 29/10/14 04:35 AM

Quote:

Not a Dreyse.. But nice!

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2298-369/

NUSUAL, HIGH QUALITY H.G. REIF (LEIPZIG) BOXLOCK NEEDLE FIRE MUZZLELOADING SHOTGUN.
SN NSN. Cal. 16 ga. .675 Bore diameter. This fine German creation appears to be based on Abraham Adolph Moser’s early muzzleloading needle fire patent, and has 31″ fine etched Damascus bbls with makers name “H. G. Reif in Leipzig” gold inlaid on raised, flat rib within silver inlaid scroll terminated device. There are inlaid gold bands and arabesque scroll at breech ends. The action consists of a pivoting lever with rotating silver knob mounted in forend, which when swung to the rear retracts long needle firing pins and cocks boxlock type internal hammers mounted above trigger plate. Action has pin type cocking indicators which protrude through breech iron, and studs with notches, one on trigger plate finial, the other in forend, which hold cocking lever in either front or rear position. In forward position mechanism can be fired. In rear position it is “safe”. This gun was made to fire a self contained combustible cartridge, similar to the Dreyse with priming behind projectile. Metal work is embellished with exceptionally fine engraving consisting of gold inlay accented shaded scroll on breech section with hound and hare chase scene on rib extension. Breech iron with more gold inlaid scroll has hunting scene of Jaeger with hound pursuing a fox. A hunting dog is gold inlaid on trigger guard, which has silver inlay of bushes in foreground. There are other gold accents on scrolled trigger guard, operating lever, and trigger plate finial. Steel trigger guard terminates in scroll carved ebony grip. Fine stump figured and lightly marbled European walnut stock features an ebony buttplate with molded sides, right hand cheekpiece, sliding patchbox, and sling button. It is embellished with excellent Germanic carving of acanthus leaves and flowers shaded by checkering at grip and with a greenman/ lion peering from each side panel. A full relief carving of hunting dog and various game is behind cheekpiece framed by acanthus scroll. Forend terminates in stylized wolf’s head with ebony and mother-of-pearl eyes. A brass headed ramrod is held by two plain pipes on bbl, one mounted with broad sling loop. CONDITION: Fine. Metal parts retain an overall brown to gray patina. Stock retains nearly all of its orig varnish finish with numerous minor marks and scratches. There is a small crack in left side panel. Carving shows light wear at grip, but is excellent overall. Cocking pivot base washer is an old replacement, and is loose. An exceptionally interesting German transitional gun of very fine quality, worthy of further study. 4-51429 MGM89 (3,000-5,000) – Lot 2298






a great example















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256121 - 31/10/14 02:55 PM

mod. 1841 military needle rifle sporterized



















http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/808/dreysesport.html

needle fire double gun number 16916 0,70" steel barrels
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=5163232















I ask the gunmaker who have this bolt action shown before for the serial number







http://www.progun.de/de/shop/langwaffen/...reyse&o=neu

its 23360 and when we remember this rifle fire the 11,15x35R grenzaufseher cartridge developt for a Mauser 71 style rifle in 1879 the number 23360 could not be before 1880.
makes a nice roe deer stalking rifle


0,70" double gun with steel barrels
http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?friend_error=1&gun_id=100422827#email_error











Edited by lancaster (02/11/14 02:36 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256123 - 31/10/14 04:19 PM

in the past i dont care about the other Dreyse gun's because they were not hunting gun's but the question is now for me if a look on this guns will help to understand the Dreyse serial number's better.
it seem's clear that military and police ordered weapen's have own blocks of serial numbers but could it be that all gun's made for the civilian market have following serial number's to the end?


neddle fire revolver, 039" and number 2628
Hermann Historica probably placed in right between 1865 and 1870


http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/a...;db=kat47_2.txt

nice little stutzen for the 0,34" number not clear to see but four-digit















http://www.antique-firearms.de/?id=2&ant=877&kt=1

revolver 0,39" number 6967
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/524880531543368619/


revolver 0,35", number looks like 4951


http://www.handgunsoftheworld.com/catalog/item/7369235/9213535.htm

single shot pistol, 034" number 15556
http://www.icollector.com/DREYSE-NEEDLEFIRE-BREECHLOADING-M1835-PISTOL_i17332833











single shot pistol 0,34" number 2018 and marked with N(icolaus) v. Dreyse
http://www.horstheld.com/0-dreyse.htm

Dreyse became "von" in 1864 and died in December 1867 so number 2018 must be between this dates




















single shot 0,34" number 7163 - this is marked with N.Dreyse so without the "v." ???
http://www.horstheld.com/0-dreyse.htm















revolver 0,39" number 11066







" Hello,
just for your information:
Your Dreyse needle-fire revolver with troop marking G.L.G.26 (not G.E.G.26.) has been bought from Prussia in 1880 and was in use with the Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz Land-Gendarmerie. So the marking is to be read as Großherzogliche Land-Gendarmerie Revolver N°26.
source: Adalbert Mila; Uniformierungs-Liste des Deutschen Reichs-Heeres und der Kaiserlichen Deutschen Marine, Berlin, 4. Auflage 1881.
Regard
U. L.
Thank you!"
http://www.horstheld.com/0-dreyse.htm

a 11066 serial number in the 1880s would fit fine into the shotgun number's!


revolver 0,35" number 5064
Franz v. Dreyse
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20Pistols.html




#


0,35" number 1695 BUT marked Franz Dreyse

as we have seen 2018 must be made after the nobilitaion in 1864 so this must be made before. I only wonder that this revolver is marked with Franz Dreyse the son of Nicolaus who got the firm in 1867/68.









target rifle, 034" number 14956
http://www.lander-historic-arms.de/objekt.php?bildnummer=3&kat=1&a=140









single shot pistol 6mm Flobert number 37458
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/



revolver 0,34" number 593 F.Dreyse
again this Revolver is marked with Franz Dreyse whats in the end no wonder because it was Franz invention. the man who make the description here have some informations I am looking for:

"Zündnadelrevolver
F.Dreyse, Sömmerda um 1860
Kaliber .34 Preußischer Zoll, Seriennummer 593, double action. Achtkantiger Lauf mit gezogener Seele. Sechsschüssige Trommel. Rahmen mit Ziergravur, seitlich gestempelt "Cal. 0,34 12 Gran Pulv.". Über der Trommel silbertauschierte Herstellerbezeichnung "F. Dreyse", die Nadelhülse mit silbernern Bandeinlagen. Griffstück mit feinem Fischhautverschnitt. Metallteile mit Resten von Bläuung, teils fleckig. Stellenweise leicht narbig. Länge 29 cm.
Extrem frühe Ausführung mit niedriger Seriennnummer. Insgesamt wurden nur 13000 Revolver (zivil und militärisch) diesen Typs gefertigt."

very early revolver(indeed) low serial number make around 1860 ... in all only 13000 revolver were made.
or he have never seen a revolver over 13000 what follow my theory must be in the end of the 1870s when the revolver was outdated.





revolver 0,35" number 1694
Herman Historica date it arround 1865/66 buts is marked F.Dreyse/Sömmerda so before 1864
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/



revolver 0,35" number 5331 http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
Hermann Historica date this revolver 4000 digits later again in 1865 ???? its markeds Franz v. Dreyse





revolver 0,39" number 6836 F.v. Dreyse
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
auction description is not clear because they put it into the 1500 revolver bought in the war 1870/71. but they write about imperial eagle stamp on the revolver what could not be before 1871.
I will see if there is a number on a gun/rifle and on a revolver the revolver must be numbered for itself.




revolver 030" number 11041 Fv. Dreyse
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/





single shot pistol for the 9,5x47R number 29973 http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
with a serial number close to 30000 it must be very late and indeed it have the crone+V stamp so made around 1891









revolver 0,35" number 3043 v. Dreyse Sömmerda
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/




single shot pistol number 30840 9mm caliber
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/



revolver 0,35" number 5438 http://militaria-fundforum.de/mff_datenbank/showthread.php?115389-Dreyse-Z%FCndnadel-Revolver













next step will be to make a list of this guns to see if numbers will be seen twice but it looks like all guns will fit into one list of serial numbers. I will see whats possible to find some landmarks for date the guns better.
I have the RMS Sömmerda (früher v. Dreyse'sche Gewehrfabrik) ammo catalog. its without a date but contain the 6,35 Browning/25 ACP which came on the market in 1904. under needle fire ammunition you read " when order ammunition for guns made in our factory please give the serial number of the gun to avoid problem's". so in this time they had the complete records for all civilian gun's to find out which ammo you need. this was important because there are special made gun's for early cartridges in time's when they were official replaced in production by new model's.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (31/10/14 08:44 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256132 - 31/10/14 09:59 PM

look into Wirtgen" Das Zündnadelgewehr" and there is another revolver 0,39" number 6862 similar to the revolver 6836 above also with the same "RC" stamp for the military revision commission. to make it a little bit more complicated this revolver have also the crone +V proof after 1891. its the standard book about needle fire rifle's but dont know anything about 1500 revolver bough in the war of 1870/71. it say this revolver's were bought for a trial before the war. anyway if this is true I can cut of the idea that the Franz v. Dreyse revolver were in serial number block of the other civilian hunting and target guns and rifles.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256192 - 02/11/14 03:28 AM

look again in Koch's book about this rifle








and because it dont have a name we will call it what he did. this bolt action is the "Dreyse Patent Kammerschloß" what will be in english "Dreyse Patent boltaction". I believe this term will distinguish this bolt action enough from the old dreyse needle fire bolt action and recommend to use it.









there is something, an unsolved mystery in this book that worry me for years now. Koch describe in his book a 12mm needle fire stalking rifle from the early 1860s but sometimes still in use in 1890.
this should be a break action single shot working similar like the teschner action. when push a underlever like we know it from the double guns the barrel slide forward until it come free from the "kammer" and then break down. problem is I never see such a break down rifle and till now all single shot rifles I have seen - not many - had barrels swing out to the right side as usual.


something like this older single shot rifle here


the general style of this rifle shows an older model probably from the 1860s. its clearly to see that this rifle shots a needle fire paper cartridge without base like Koch describe for the "12mm stalking rifle". notice that the trigger guard seems to be the same you see on the M 65 Jägerbüchse





Koch is writing that this 12mm Needle fire rifle shot a paper cartridge with the common paper made sabot and the primer pill in the base of this. the bullet was hold by the sabot but unlike the military rifle the bullet had some contact with the rifling and dont fill it complete.
the RMS ammo catalog have cartridges for the "Zündnadel-Rotations-Büchse 11mm"


not only rifle cartridges but shotgun cartridges too. The "Rotations - Büchse" means this rifle was using the now well known Dreyse rifled chamber insert


and by changing it you had a small bore shotgun. the 11mm caliber would fit his description of a bullet in contact with rifling but dont fill the 12mm barrel.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (02/11/14 03:06 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256213 - 02/11/14 03:04 PM

this thing become now so long I lost the overview
the rifle I looking for is allreay here on the first page


"


http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-65.html
N. Dreyse in Sömmerda made in 1860/61. cal. 12,5 mm, serial number. 334. barrel 60,5 cm long and made for prussian navy officer as a gift.
what we see is a beautyfull stutzen not a double but only one rifled barrel made as a break action in the general lines of the dreyse double gun ZIMMER describe as the "old " modell. giving as a gift in the beginning of 1861 it was probably made in 1860. the dreyse hunting gun was developt by Franz Dreyse in 1856 so I would think its the hunting gun number 334 made since 1856 AND ALL dreyse hunting guns are in one group of serial numbers"

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=244637&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

back to the F.v.Dreyse Patent bolt action...

find it in Rudolf Schmidt "Die Handfeuerwaffen" 1877 Basel/Switzerland











so despit of the fact that the probably oldest experimental rifle with this action having a "1870" mark the Patent bolt action got the patent on february 23, 1874. that means probably that the last needle rifle model for the Baden customs was made after 1874 when the Mauser 71 was allready in production.this seems hard to understand but maybe it was a question of money like most times in life. 100 cartridges for the needle fire rifle have cost 4,50 mark and 100 cartridges for the Mauser 71 8,75 mark. after all I have learned about bureaucracy this seems reason enough.

Edited by lancaster (02/11/14 03:37 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256285 - 05/11/14 07:28 AM

think I have two milestones again when dating Dreyse guns
remember that Franz v. Dreyse died in 1894 and the family sold the firm to Rheinmetall in 1901. I presume that the new Rheinmetall Sömmerda dont make sporting rifles anymore because the firm was bought for making artillery stuff for Rheinmetall. of course there were eceptions like the Dreyse selfloading carbine


what was more or less a by-product of the selflopading pistol 07


so the highest number of a Franz v. Dreyse marked gun is this
"A RARE SIDE-OPENING PATENT 12-BORE HAMMERLESS GUN BY F. von DREYSE (SMMERDA), NO. 33290



I assume that between 1894 and 1899 guns were marked only with " v. Dreyse Sömmerda"
in 1899 the Munitions&Waffenfabrik Sömmerda AG was founded where Heinrich Ehrhardt had more or less the control. here is a headstamp of a 5,6x33 with the M&W Soemmerda headstamp:





http://www.cartridgecollector.net/t55-57-x-33-dreyse

and whats with the serial numbers then?


MUN. & WAFFENFABR SOMMERDA
A 7.9mm BOLT-MAGAZINE SPORTING RIFLE, serial no. 37531 http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...no=&image=0

number 37531 is made in the time of Munitions&Waffenfabrik Sömmerda AG between 1899 and 1901

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256978 - 19/11/14 03:46 PM

before the context get lost the serial number of the .22 claiber patent rifle above is 31039. the rifle is without any proof so sold before 1891. here is another patent rifle with V/crown between 1891 and 1893 on top in the Dreyse logo



R/crown and "6,5mm" on the right side of the barrel show this rifle was proof after 1912.to bad the serial number is not available but it seem obvious it must be near to the .22 rifle. the rifle was probably rebored or rechamered after 1912 and my own opinion goes to the 6,5x27R.









Courtesy of Alain Daubresse
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/a%20dreyse%20gb.htm


I see now that the patent action was made in 3 different length's
a short action



an intermediate length like here for the 11,15x37R






and a long action for cartridges like 10,5x47R




or 11,15x60R


notice the intermediate and the long action having an additional stud on the bolt. this work together with the bolt lever in opened positon as a guide rib.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257055 - 22/11/14 01:40 AM

Just found this:

"SN 1. Cal. 11mm. Dreyse Patent Model/Sample Bolt Action, Mauser 71 cartridge, only bore leed rifled, action sample as Patent Model for British Patent 4198/7, marked "FRANZ VON DREYSE SOMMERDA, GEWEHRSCHLOSS MODEL u LAUF mit ROTATION EINRICHTUNG". Unique factory demonstration piece or patent application model showing the workings of the Dreyse patent action with rifling restricted to a short length immediately before the chamber in the bore leed, the remainder of the barrel being smoothbored to reduce bullet friction in the bore. All metal is in the white with the exception of the trigger and has scattered light brown patina. Mechanics fine and action is crisp. SN 1 on left side of bbl flat. Bbl has only lead rifling with remainder smooth bore. PROVENANCE: Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. CONDITION: Antique, good to very good. Wooden portion of stock shows numerous dings and handling marks. 4-53079 DW58"







--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (22/11/14 01:42 AM)


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cwilson
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257056 - 22/11/14 02:36 AM











just obtained this Dreyse 11mm double rifle. Anyone know where I can get additional information on it? Origin, Value, date of manufacture...etc. Sorry to hijack the thread.

cwilson


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257068 - 22/11/14 02:48 PM

thats realy unigue chapman, do you know when the british patent was given?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257069 - 22/11/14 03:40 PM

hallo cwilson
you dont hijack this thread in any way, it goes on and on just to clear the question you and me have
this is a very interesting double rifle and I wish it stand in my safe.
it was made in the Franz von Dreyse gun factory in Sömmerda/Germany. the gold on your barrel dont lie to you.
value is allways a question and if you wish to know it exactly just give it in an auction. I see it sale here for 3000 -3500 euro.
Franz v. Dreyse die in 1894 and the firm was taking over partly by Rheinmetall in 1899 and complete in 1901.it seems after Franz died the firm marked guns with "v.Dreyse Sömmerda" so your double rifle with the serial number 34230 was made before his dead. for many reason we need more pics of your rifle. if it have the german proof marks we can date this double in the 1893/94 period. serial number 37531 is made after 1899 but the firm was in trouble in this years and we can imagine they dont make many guns in this harder times.
the old double gun from 1856 was very outdated in 1890 by the modern hammerless boxlock and sidelock actions from britain we still have in use today and if there wasn't the conservative prussian gentry the problem may have occur earlier. to chamber the guns for the so called Lancaster shotgun cartridges ( the type we still have in use) was not the answer and in the last years there was a lot of trial to find a new and more modern action like this 12ga hammerless dounle gun, serial number 33290 here.


they made also common toplever hammer guns like this 16 ga/11,15x60R combination gun probably after 1894.




http://www.vdb-waffen.de/de/gebrauchtwaf...reyse&o=neu

you have to look very closely on this hammergun to see the Dreyse design DNA in it and its only in things like stock, carved horn pistol grib and forearm tip telling you who the craftsman were making this. there was at least another action with the dreyse underleaver but the barrels break normal.



your double rifle is something in between and it seems to me the firing pins will be unlock with this massive piece at the end of the action by press the button on top. please make so many pics as possible showing how the action is working, proof and caliber marks under the barrel respectively on the action.
do you shoot the double rifle?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/11/14 06:30 PM)


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257070 - 22/11/14 08:59 PM

Quote:

thats realy unigue chapman, do you know when the british patent was given?




i have tried to find in online, nothing so far. I dont find even the german patent.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (22/11/14 09:09 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257071 - 22/11/14 11:03 PM

chapman, finally I find out that the Dreyse Patent action like the Mauser 71 have an extractor but no ejector. is this the case with your rimfire rifle too?

I was wonder before what this is for a part on the right side of the reciever here.


have showing the rifle above, its the only patent rifle till now with this unknown part. maybe some kind of ejector made later and this would also explain the R/crown proof after 1912.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257075 - 23/11/14 02:35 AM

I have seen this part in the pic before and was also wondering about it.
As you see in the pic my rimfire has only an extractor.



In this advertisment Dreyse offers "Pürschbüchsen in drei Größen/ Stalking rifles in three sices" 1886. So maybe these are the anounced ones.



Do you have found the german patent?

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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