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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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Leatherneck2111
.224 member

Reged: 24/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: IN Indiana

Edgar Kiess Combination Gun
#256935 - 18/11/14 05:22 AM

Hello all, I lurk and read here mostly and I have a question.

There is an Edgar Keiss combo gun coming up at auction locally, a 12ga over 6.5??, the gun appears to be in excellent condition with bright bores AND the original scope and mount are on the gun.

My question is...what should I expect to pay for the gun?

I have seen the gun first hand and will attempt to get pictures ASAP as I know you all have more experience and know what to look for.

Thank you in advance for any info.

(The reason for the ?? on the 6.5cal. is that it appears to be much longer that a 6.5x55, so I don't know exactly what it is.)

ETA*** As posted below, the rifle is actually an 8x65RS.

Leatherneck2111

**** ETA- After many hour of digging all I have found about Edgar Keiss is that he worked in Suhl and also built several Mauser action bolt rifles but NO info on him making any Combo-guns.

Edited by Leatherneck2111 (18/11/14 03:01 PM)

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Leatherneck2111
.224 member

Reged: 24/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: IN Indiana

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: Leatherneck2111]
#256939 - 18/11/14 09:51 AM

I can't seem to make the pictures work as I suck at the internet. There is a link to view the picture from the auction source. (if this is breaking any rules please have the Moderator delete.)

www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=1547&aid=86970&lid=21944110&title=Edgar-Kiess-Combination-Gun-12ga.-6.5mm

Thanks again for any info.

--------------------
Old retired Marine- gunsmith,knifemaker,BBQ cook...not necessarily in that order.

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m4220
.300 member

Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 234
Loc: wa

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: Leatherneck2111]
#256944 - 18/11/14 02:21 PM

Hi,
From the markings on the bottom of the barrels it appears to be an 8x65RS Brenneke (.323 bullet dia.) & 12 gauge x 70mm chambers, proofed in Zella in December 1936 with ledger #562. Hope this helps, I'm sure that others will correct or add any detail I may have missed.

m4220

Edited by m4220 (18/11/14 02:32 PM)

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Leatherneck2111
.224 member

Reged: 24/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: IN Indiana

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: m4220]
#256945 - 18/11/14 02:58 PM

That is what I get for not checking the pictures and spending all my time trying to figure what it is and what it's worth. The excitement got to me and I didn't check the auction house info. Buck fever but with a firearm.

Thank you Sir.

--------------------
Old retired Marine- gunsmith,knifemaker,BBQ cook...not necessarily in that order.

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m4220
.300 member

Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 234
Loc: wa

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: Leatherneck2111]
#256947 - 18/11/14 03:20 PM

The auction house info is wrong, they think it is some sort of 6.5 calibre, it's not. It is marked as a 8x65RS as I stated.

m4220

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Ash
.400 member

Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: m4220]
#256954 - 18/11/14 08:59 PM

If you like it mate, go for it

Welcome to the forum, hope to see you around.

--------------------
.

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: Leatherneck2111]
#256955 - 18/11/14 09:14 PM

I have a Krieghoff Neptun sidelock drilling in 16/16/8X65R and the cartridge is a real performer. It has ballistics similar to the 8mm-'06 wildcat that a number of returning servicemen had their war trophy 8X57JS Mauser rifles converted to. The brass is easily formed from the more readily available 7X65R cases simply by expanding the necks.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: xausa]
#256962 - 19/11/14 04:31 AM

Looks like a great gun!
I still say that these are undervalued in the U.S. market but not being that knowledgeable about them, I can't estimate what I think it should go for.
Anyway, a lot of people watch this site so I wouldn't want to hurt your chances of getting a good deal by throwing out a number which may not be anything more than a price I would be comfortable with.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: Huvius]
#256963 - 19/11/14 05:23 AM

Edgar Kiess, Drusselstrasse 33, Suhl, is documented 1899 to 1937. Though he specialised in bolt action rifles, as usual with the German gunmakers made or had made any gun a customer demanded. This gun was proofed by the Zella-Mehlis proofhouse (Nitro in script, 569 ledger number) in December 1936. So it was probably made for Kiess in Zella-Mehlis to the “in the white” state, merely finished by him.
The 8x65RS was developed by Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, in 1912, some years before the 7x65R. Original ballistics show a 13.4g = 207gr TIG bullet at 2660fps.

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Leatherneck2111
.224 member

Reged: 24/11/11
Posts: 4
Loc: IN Indiana

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: kuduae]
#256972 - 19/11/14 11:41 AM

Thank you everyone I am going down to the auction house tomorrow to give it a closer look, hopefully this time without the buck fever.

I also advised them today on the phone of the caliber error and they were going to correct it asap.

Kuduae- Thank you for the background info, that is the kind of stuff that I was looking for.

--------------------
Old retired Marine- gunsmith,knifemaker,BBQ cook...not necessarily in that order.

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: Leatherneck2111]
#257610 - 07/12/14 11:57 PM

It went for $2300 and the listing was changed to "12 ga./8mm" for the caliber. I wonder if the buyer knew what he was buying. An 8X57RS cartridge should chamber and fire in it, but the fired case will look strange afterwards.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: xausa]
#257617 - 08/12/14 04:05 AM

Dangerous to fire or attempt to fire 57mm case in it.
Approximately 1/4" or more of headspace? It could blow up first shot.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: xausa]
#257618 - 08/12/14 04:05 AM

Dangerous to fire or attempt to fire 57mm case in it.
Approximately 1/4" or more of headspace? It could blow up first shot if the rim jumps the extractor when the pin hits it.

---------------------

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: DarylS]
#257628 - 08/12/14 09:10 AM

Quote:

Dangerous to fire or attempt to fire 57mm case in it.
Approximately 1/4" or more of headspace? It could blow up first shot if the rim jumps the extractor when the pin hits it.

---------------------

Wrong! This is a break-open gun using rimmed cartridges with a solid rim recess in the barrel. The rim cannot "jump an extractor" as in a repeater. As the 8x57IR headspaces on the rim, just as the 8x65R does, there is no excess headspace. Just the forward part of the case will fireform out and loose almost all neck.

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9037
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: kuduae]
#257632 - 08/12/14 02:24 PM

will look like the 9,3x57 case in the middle fired in a 9,3x62 chamber

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: DarylS]
#257640 - 09/12/14 01:33 AM

Quote:

Dangerous to fire or attempt to fire 57mm case in it.
Approximately 1/4" or more of headspace? It could blow up first shot if the rim jumps the extractor when the pin hits it.

---------------------

Do you have an example of this actually happening? I am aware of numerous examples of .308 Winchester cartridges being fired in .30-'06 chambers with no ill effects.

I don't get the significance of "if the rim jumps the extractor"? The ignition of the powder is going to slam the rimless case head right back against the standing breech or bolt face. At worst you might get a case head separation, if the case obturates too quickly and adheres too firmly to the chamber walls to allow this to happen.

And, as kuduae says, these are rimmed cartridges which don't headspace on the shoulder. No different than firing a .300 Winchester Magnum cartridge in a .300 Weatherby chamber.

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27005
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: kuduae]
#257642 - 09/12/14 02:40 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Dangerous to fire or attempt to fire 57mm case in it.
Approximately 1/4" or more of headspace? It could blow up first shot if the rim jumps the extractor when the pin hits it.

---------------------

Wrong! This is a break-open gun using rimmed cartridges with a solid rim recess in the barrel. The rim cannot "jump an extractor" as in a repeater. As the 8x57IR headspaces on the rim, just as the 8x65R does, there is no excess headspace. Just the forward part of the case will fireform out and loose almost all neck.

My error - I was thinking rimmless.

TKs for the correction.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 9037
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Edgar Kiess Combination Gun [Re: xausa]
#257647 - 09/12/14 05:49 AM

hearsay is that the 8x33 Kurz was well liked for poaching after WW2 for shooting in the 98k mauser. fired in the 8x57 chamber the bang was substantial less noisy.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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