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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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mckinney
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Low number Springfields
      #256433 - 09/11/14 06:21 AM

Michael Petrov's collection of pre-war sporting rifles is being auctioned off later this month, as most probably know. Many of the really delectable items (Wundhammers, early Griffins, Harvey Rodgers, etc.) are built on low number Springfield or Rock Island actions. I assume these actions have the same risk of failure (miniscule to high, depending on what you read - i lean to miniscule myself) as regular service rifles. That is, the custom makers wouldn't have been able to do anything about the risks inherent in these low numbered actions. Does anyone disagree with this?

Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks

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Eck
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: mckinney]
      #256562 - 11/11/14 02:35 AM

Some of the better gunmakers (R.F. Sedgley, as an example) re-heat treated the low number receivers, and re-proofed them with a "blue pill" proof load. I have no reservations shooting my Sedgley.

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xausa
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: mckinney]
      #256571 - 11/11/14 05:55 AM

The defective low numbered Springfields were those whose receivers were raised to an excessive temperature in the furnace during the heat treatment process, which resulted in chrystalized metal structure and receivers which were hard all the way through, rather than hard on the surface and soft in the middle. Some were so brittle that they shattered when tapped with a hammer.

This condition would have been obvious when drilling and tapping the receiver for the Lyman 48 sight.

It is difficult to believe that any of the gun makers represented in Michael's collection was so ignorant or negligent as to use such a receiver in creating a fine sporting rifle.

I have no compunctions about firing my Wundhammer Springfield, or for that matter, my Sedgleys, although Sedgley's re-heat treatment is questionable. If a receiver was overheated, resulting in a change in the characteristics of the steel, no amount of re-heat treatment could salvage it.

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kuduae
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: xausa]
      #256574 - 11/11/14 07:36 AM

The history of low numbered Springfield failures was published by Ordnance General Julian S. Hatcher in “Hatcher’s Notebook”, 3rd edition, Harrisburg,Pa. 1966. Hatcher was responsible for the investigation of each case of a blown-up Springfield receiver and on page 446-47 lists every case by maker, Springfield and Rock Island arsenals. In total there were 68 cases of receiver failure from 1917 to 1929, 33 of them made by Springfield, 24 by Rock Island, 11 unidentified. By both arsenals together more than a million, 1085507 “low numbered” receivers were made. So of these receivers 1 in 15963 failed in service. Some of these failures were influenced by other reasons too: Firing 8x57 IS German service loads, probably steel core, barrel obstructions, and the then habit of putting heavy grease on bullet and often case neck to avoid “nickel fouling” in target practice.
Of course the US ordnance department investigated the possibility of salvaging the “low number “ receivers by re-heat treating. Result (page 222): “ The tests bring out quite clearly the fact that uniform results cannot be obtained by re-heat treating old receivers which vary widely in chemical composition.”
The 1928 US Army solution (page 223): “Our ammunition is getting worse and accidents may be somewhat more frequent. On the other hand, some of these early rifles have been in use for many years and undoubtedly some of them have worn out several barrels. I do not think the occasion merits the withdrawal of the rifles of low numbers in the hands of troops until the rifle is otherwise unserviceable. On the other hand, I do not think we are justified in issuing such rifles from our establishments. I recommend that we instruct our Ordnance establishments to no longer issue rifles with these questionable receivers, that such rifles be set aside and considered as a war reserve and the question of the ultimate replacement of the receivers be deferred. When rifles are turned in from the troops for repair the receivers having these low numbers should be scrapped.” (Chief of Field Service, Brigadier General Samuel Hof)
IMHO many of these “low numbered” saw active service through WW2 and beyond.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: kuduae]
      #256579 - 11/11/14 09:55 AM

Springfield actions were unsafe because of erratic heat treatment . Jack O'Connor almost lost his thumb when one blew up .There have been many recorded failings .I knew an old guy who lived in Missoula that belonged to the Norwegian American club who hunted with a sporterized 03 for 30 years and one day before deer season he was sighting in his rifle and it blew up and he lost an eye . I have never and will never own a Springfield 03 rifle.

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DarylS
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #256582 - 11/11/14 12:40 PM

Hmm - don't know anything about them, but one worked very well for Lt. John George in the Pacific.

I have an action here that is a cross between a 98 and a 03 Springfield - made in England in the 80's. Seems to work fine so far. Can't remember what they are called, might even be on the action - to lazy right now to open up the safe and have a look-see.
It's Miller time - well, not exactly, it's Sleeman's Honey Brown time.
Cheers!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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wjw
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: DarylS]
      #256585 - 11/11/14 03:04 PM

Daryl

Suspect your action is probably a Midland - used a Springfield bolt in a new receiver that fits a Mauser 98 stock.

Bill

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mckinney
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: wjw]
      #256607 - 12/11/14 04:13 AM

Thanks guys, much appreciated. I may make a play for one or two of Michael's rifles. The Wundhammers have possibly the most beautiful lines (to my eye) I've ever seen - something I didn't expect having never before seen a high quality full length shot of one.

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DarylS
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: wjw]
      #256608 - 12/11/14 04:23 AM

TKS, Bill. That is the name I couldn't remember - Midland. Kinda cool, oldy folksy type of action- with standard M98 threads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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pjaln
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: DarylS]
      #256642 - 13/11/14 12:46 AM

items 251 and 413 are just 2 of the many unmarked springfields ive sold to mike going back over 15 years ago ,,,we had long discussions about them long before the book came out ....paul

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mckinney
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: pjaln]
      #256645 - 13/11/14 02:22 AM

Lots of great stuff in this sale and not only rifles - some very nice prewar Colt revolvers.

Do you know what became of Michael's GH database? Hopefully it went to Bob Beach.

I'll take a look at 251 and 413, but again won't be able to get to the pre sale viewing.

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dons
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: mckinney]
      #256655 - 13/11/14 07:51 AM

mckinney: Wish you bidding success on a couple of Michael's Wundhammers. Being a Fred Adolph fan, the G.W. Mixer rifle is probably the most elegant, although plain, stock I have ever seen. I think the estimated prices are quite realistic.

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pjaln
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: dons]
      #256659 - 13/11/14 09:00 AM

na don the gibbs takes the cake....paul

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dons
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: pjaln]
      #256661 - 13/11/14 09:18 AM

Paul, I knew you would pick that one.

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pjaln
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: dons]
      #256671 - 13/11/14 02:43 PM

don,,i seen pictures of that gun about 10 years ago when he first got it , i believe it may have been built for someone in canada ...this auction will be the end of the short money springfields ..!paul

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458Win
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: pjaln]
      #256691 - 14/11/14 04:55 AM

Good luck on the bidding everyone. I loved fondling all of Michaels rifles and hope I can pick up one of the Wundhammers to keep my Minar company.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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dons
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: 458Win]
      #256708 - 14/11/14 08:32 AM

Phil: So your the guy that owns the 257 Adolph Minar. What a beauty. Could you post some photos for our viewing pleasure?

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458Win
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: dons]
      #256710 - 14/11/14 09:04 AM

No, My Minar is a 30-06 and the one Michael Petrov owned is the 257 that is going up for auction with Amoskeag on Nov 22nd.
We put them side by side and there is no doubt that they were built by the same maker. I considered bidding on the 257 but wouldn't know what to do with half of the world's known Minars.
When Michael and I put the two rifles together and got to looking I noticed a small letters had written in pencil in the bottom of the inletting. An A centered in an M. We figured it must have been the only marking Adolf Minar used to distinguish his rifles.

I think I posted some here on NE but I know Steven Dodd Hughes also has some of my photos of the Minar on his Fine Guns website as well.

http://www.finegunmaking.com/page32/page46/page46.html

Edited by 458Win (14/11/14 09:11 AM)

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mckinney
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #256812 - 16/11/14 04:47 AM

Deutsche

Was your friend using a service rifle or a custom gun by a well known maker? Any idea what ammo he was using?

Thanks

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redoak
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: mckinney]
      #256835 - 16/11/14 04:55 PM

Deutsche,

I am going from memory here, but as I recall, on O'Connor's Springfield that you mentioned, the firing pin broke after a shot, lodging the remaining tip of the pin in the forward firing position. When he pushed the bolt forward to chamber the next round, that cartridge fired before the bolt was fully closed, blowing the bolt back and injuring his thumb. I suppose this could be called a blow-up, but I do not recall that it was because of a low number 03 receiver failure.

There is a detailed account of this in one of his books, but I cannot find it off-hand.

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buckbrush
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #256839 - 16/11/14 05:52 PM

Quote:

Springfield actions were unsafe because of erratic heat treatment . Jack O'Connor almost lost his thumb when one blew up .There have been many recorded failings .I knew an old guy who lived in Missoula that belonged to the Norwegian American club who hunted with a sporterized 03 for 30 years and one day before deer season he was sighting in his rifle and it blew up and he lost an eye . I have never and will never own a Springfield 03 rifle.




Jack O'Connor injured his thumb when the firing pin in his Springfield broke and the front part jammed in the firing pin hole, causing an out of battery firing. He was buried with that rifle.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: DarylS]
      #256857 - 17/11/14 01:15 AM

Quote:

Hmm - don't know anything about them, but one worked very well for Lt. John George in the Pacific.

I have an action here that is a cross between a 98 and a 03 Springfield - made in England in the 80's. Seems to work fine so far. Can't remember what they are called, might even be on the action - to lazy right now to open up the safe and have a look-see.
It's Miller time - well, not exactly, it's Sleeman's Honey Brown time.
Cheers!

John George hated the 03 Springfield .I have read his book maybe 10 times .Lt.George brought a Springfield 03 sniper rifle with him along with his personal Model 70 Winchester sniper with Lyman Alaskan scope (which he did most of his damage with )to Burma and Guadalcanal and the South Pacific in WW2. George was not fond of the 03 because of its 2 piece firing pin which had no safety mechanism like the Mauser and was prone to breakage) ,flimsy sights (especially the front ) prone to breakage ,poor heat treating of the receiver bad stock design among other issues. In George's weapons assessment chapters in "Shots Fired in anger " he gives a scathing report on the 03 Springfield .I would be glad to upload it .


Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (17/11/14 01:59 AM)

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dons
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: 458Win]
      #256875 - 17/11/14 05:07 AM

I consider myself fortunate to have been in the right place at the right time when, 4 years ago, Michael made the decision to part with his Fred Adolph Kurz Mauser. He had owned that rifle for over 20 years but his obsession with Springfields was just too strong. It was a rare occasion when Michael would sell anything from his collection. I can now look through the Amoskeag catalog at his rifles and not feel the urgent need to bid on one of them.

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DarylS
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: dons]
      #256876 - 17/11/14 05:15 AM

Shots Fired in Anger was a really well written book - captivating, actually - or at least I thought so back in about 1985 when I read it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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458Win
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Re: Low number Springfields [Re: dons]
      #256877 - 17/11/14 05:20 AM

I certainly miss the opportunity to stop by Michaels anytime I wanted to look at and handle any of his fine rifles and I also don't feel any urgent needs to purchase them. But I do have a special fondness for one of the Wundhammer rifles. I had tried to purchase a number of times but couldn't convince the owner to sell. Years later it showed up in Michaels collection and he told me how hard a time he had in getting it. I at least put in a bid on it.
I am anxiously waiting to see how they fare in the open market and hope I don't need to part with my Minar to afford a Wundhammer.

--------------------
Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either never used one - or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

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