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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Dreyse rimfire singleshot
      #256008 - 30/10/14 07:18 AM

Just found an Dreyse Sömmerda single shot- .22 lr fits the chamber. No proofmarks, only sn.













--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8729
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256049 - 30/10/14 03:44 PM

the rifle from egun, you have it in your hands now? was quick
you got this little rifle for a nice price dont you think so? must be made before 1893-95

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256053 - 30/10/14 04:14 PM

Yeah, it is the one from egun - seems that nobody was interested.....and in my eyes
an really good price.

Edited by chapmen (30/10/14 04:17 PM)

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256068 - 30/10/14 10:12 PM

Love it! May i ask how much it set you back?

--------------------
.

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: Ash]
      #256072 - 30/10/14 11:47 PM

Hard to tell.........60 euro

The most interesting point for me is the little bit over engineerd bolt.
Really complicated good made work.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (30/10/14 11:51 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256074 - 31/10/14 12:15 AM

as I unbderstand the Dreyse philosophy the safety must not simply block the firing pin but uncock the firing pin string similar to a Carcano action. is this the case with this rifle too? see it on every Dreyse gun I had in my hands before startet with the early needle fire rifles.
did you believe this rifle startet as a 6mm Flobert? the 22 short, long and long rifle were not so much in use in this times.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
.300 member


Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256080 - 31/10/14 01:02 AM

I received it yesterday and havent had the time to get deeper in it.
It seems that the safety works works in carcano style.
An .22 lr fits the chamber perfect, but i will take an casting to measure chamber
and barrel.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256088 - 31/10/14 04:41 AM

This bolt Action design was Franz von Dreyse's offer when the German armies looked for a replacement for the obsolescent Dreyse needle fire rifles at the end of the 1870-71 Franco-Prussian war. As all know, the Mauser M71 was adopted instead. Franz v. Dreyse continued to offer sporting rifles on this action design in several sizes, but apparently it could not compete with the Mauser M71 design, which was also made in simplified form and in various sizes by the Zella - Mehlis guntrade up to WW1. Georg Koch in his 1891 book "Die Jagdgewehre der Gegenwart" has lots of praise for this action,declaring it much superior to the Mauser design because of the uncocking safety. But Koch gives his address as "Soemmerda", same as Dreyse...

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: kuduae]
      #256091 - 31/10/14 05:13 AM

a collector told me once that Koch was the son in law of Franz v. Dreyse so his opinion was not disinterested.
the Baden custom's needle fire rifle was probably the very first using this bolt design and iirc the order for this rifle was made before the war of 70/71 so this design was maybe older.




pic of a rifle in 11,15x60R




hunting rifle in 10,5x47R




5,6x35R Vierling



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
.300 member


Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256094 - 31/10/14 06:20 AM

Very interesting pics.
Found one more thing that makes me wonder:
The stock pad, made of sheet metal shows stamps looking for me like regimental markings.......





--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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lancaster
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Posts: 8729
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256127 - 31/10/14 08:16 PM

could you give the serial number? it is without a proof, right? so made before 1891...

I ask for the chamber because the 22 lr was not realy popular in this times and when I look into the Dreyse ammo catalog undated but after 1904 there is the 22 short and 22 long but no 22 lr.




seems unlikely they chamber a cartridge but dont have it in production 15 years later. and you know how easy it is the rechamber 6mm flobert, 22 short and long into 22 lr.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256131 - 31/10/14 09:52 PM

I dont know the really caliber/cartridge, just said that an 22 lr fits the chamber perfect.
I know the timeframe for the .22 and still looking for an answer since when the .22 lr was made in
germany based on an printed source .
I will cast the chamber to get exact measurements. But it is not easy to find datas for the 6mm Flobert,
found around 4-5 different datas in the www.......
Rifle has no proofmarks, sn comes later because i dont have it by the hand right now.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (31/10/14 09:54 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256133 - 31/10/14 10:08 PM

look into Wirthgen "Das Zündnadelgewehr" and the first and oldest rifle with this new bolt was found in the Museum in Dresden and its marked "1870". this gun was build by using a Model 1862 needle fire rifle and the bolt was suitable for center fire primer or needle primer in the cartridge base.
the first rifle build with this was the obscure Baden Grenzaufseher rifle. the cartridge is listed in the RMS ammo catalog as a paper cartridges with gas-tight base, needle primer and bullet with a 0,61" diameter sabot so probably same barrel diameter the older military rifles have.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (31/10/14 10:34 PM)

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256142 - 31/10/14 11:53 PM

Quote:

Hard to tell.........60 euro




Good golly! I'd pay twice that, and then some, any day to get my hands on one here!

You lucky devil, you!

Let us know how it shoots when you get it running

--------------------
.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256345 - 07/11/14 04:11 AM

chapman, pleace dont forget the serial number of the dreyse patent rifle

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256384 - 08/11/14 01:45 AM

Barrel and system: 31039 , all small parts stamped 39.
So, what tells the sn? I am very excited!

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256385 - 08/11/14 02:57 AM

not so fast! just trying to find some basics in serial number's and I need more informations( need all)

what do I know? your dreyse patent rifle 31039 have no proof so before 1891.
I have an unusual but obviously very late double gun 33290 with Franz v. Dreyse so till 1894. and a M 88 sporting rifle 37531 with Munition's & Waffenfabrik Sömmerda made between 1899 and 1901. your rifle must be very close to 1891 dont you think so?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (08/11/14 02:59 AM)

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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256394 - 08/11/14 05:29 AM

I agree with late 1880 and before 1891. But i have still the problem in the time frame with the cartridge .22 long.
The earliest notice i know for making the .22 long in germany is from 1899, RWS Stadeln made the .22 long with blackpowder at this time.
The question is- when it is chambered in origin for the .22 long- if Dreyse would have build an rifle for imported ammo.
But it is interesting that Dreyse used obviously running serial numbers.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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DarylS
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: chapmen]
      #256397 - 08/11/14 06:57 AM

I think the .22 LONG was made prior to the .22 Long Rifle. The chart or listing above shows .22 Kurtz and .22 Lang, short and long & they appear to be loaded with the same bullet, not the longer LR bullet.
The cases of the .22 Long and Long Rifle were the same length, however the bullets of course are different - 29gr. for the .22 short (Kurtz) and .22 long (lang), and 40gr. for the more modern, .22 Long Rifle.


Barnes COTW lists the .22 Long Rifle as being developed in 1887 by the J. Stevens Arms and Tool Company.

"It is the 22 Long case with a 5-grain blackpowder charge and a 40-grain bullet instead of the original 29-grain."

Also- if chambered for the 29gr. Long's bullet or the .22 Short ctg. the rifling twist should be in the 24" range, while the .22 LR rate of twist became 16" - however - when the twists were straightened out to those standards, I do not know. Only measuring will tell. If indeed slow, it will shoot the long ammo just fine. If the faster twist, it might not shoot the long ammo well at all, which would be fine - LR is much cheaper - here, anyway.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: DarylS]
      #256398 - 08/11/14 07:08 AM

german catalogs before WW 1 still have american rimfire cartridges besides of the german made rimfire cartridges. when the 22 lr have its origin from 1887 there was no time to loose

and there is also this 6 mm flobert single shot pistol Hermann Historica sold some times ago



serial number 37458

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: lancaster]
      #256400 - 08/11/14 07:23 AM

When I was a boy growing up, whenever we visited Gramma in the city of London, (Ontario), we insisted on going to 'Collector's Corner" down by the Court-house & Jail at the end of Dundas street.

I remember there were boxes of 9mm Shot rimfire ctgs. for sale on the rack along with the guns. I remember that 2 boxes of ammo was about the same price as a Flobert 9mmm shotgun.

Also, there were muzzleloading rifles and shotguns, dozens of Trapdoor Springfield rifles for $10.00 to $30.00 depending on condition, along with other CF military and sporting rifles and shotguns of the mid to late 1800's - all there, all for $10.00 to about $175.00 tops for REALLY exotic looking European rifles and shotguns. There were barrels of WW1 and WW2 military rifles for sale and they were all in the #25.00 range.

This was the late 50's - we were merely fascinated kids - 8 or 9 yrs old, but we were learning about what would become our driving force, the gaining of knowledge and abilities with those very weapons.

I remember a pair of 10 bore Westley Richards barrels in the window, with the tops of the chambers blown out. There was a card with this in dark black large print - THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STICK THE BARRELS IN THE WATER TO SHOOT AT A FISH - DO NOT DO THIS.

the memories come flooding back to me.

Thanks for this thread - wonderful stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Dreyse rimfire singleshot [Re: DarylS]
      #256401 - 08/11/14 07:24 AM

Afaik at the time the rifle was made, the only .22 cartridges known in Germany were the 6mm Flobert and the .22 short. But don't think too much about an "apparently .22lr chamber". Most of the pre-war licence free, nominally "6mm Flobert" single shot rifles are chambered very generously, maybe for the longer 6mm Flobert shot cartridges. They readily accept and shoot the .22lr. And don't forget the possibility of a later rechambering job, done with some household tools and bypassing the proofhouse. BTW, 6mm Flobert rifles were apparently not rated as "firearms". I have seen several Zella_Mehlis ones, made during the interwar years, without any proofmarks.

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