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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Seancass
.224 member


Reged: 30/11/11
Posts: 21
Loc: IN, USA
The Modern Sporting Rifle
      #255205 - 15/10/14 02:00 PM

I don't shoot a lot of rifles, I tend towards handguns more. Namely, large bore revolvers. But that is not the subject of this post.

Last weekend I went out shooting with some of my best friends. It was some casual plinking and I had my AR(Modern Sporting Rifle) out on the range for only the second time. It is not my favorite rifle, and one of my friends couldn't believe I even purchased an AR, but hey, a good deal is hard to pass up. It was a lower-end model, but it functioned perfectly. It just has an absolute garbage trigger. Although, it may be average for the breed, I expect better. It sports a 1-4x scope with backup irons. I switched back and forth between the two to check the zero and it shot great all afternoon.

My question for you folks is, what is the worldly opinion of the modern semi-auto rifle? It's the most popular rifle in the US by a wide margin, but it has short-comings. I don't love mine, but with a trigger upgrade, it could be a very useful rifle. What does the rest of the world think of these things? Ugly plastic garbage? A crime in the game field? A soul-less bullet throwing machine? As time-less as a cell phone?

(I searched back several pages and didn't see a discussion on this, nor any warning that discussing these ugly rifles would result in instant banning)

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1649
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Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255206 - 15/10/14 03:38 PM

There is two kind of modern semi-auto rifles; those who are, in the first place, designed for hunting and those who are converted from military models. I have nothing against the first department but I donīt personally be fond of the latter ones, are they how accurate ever. IMO best place for them is a competition range, not hunting fields.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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Seancass
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Reged: 30/11/11
Posts: 21
Loc: IN, USA
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #255207 - 15/10/14 04:10 PM

Igorrock, that made me think of some additional questions: What's your exposure to these things? Are they common or legal for hunting? Are they common for sporting use?

Around here, military based models are basically the only game in town! Parts and accessories for these are so common, it's hard to justify anything else, at least in my budget range. I'm not sure I can think of a semi-auto that doesn't have military roots. Caliber conversions are readily available, but I'd say 98+% are .223/556 caliber. The rifles are common for varmint and small predator hunting. They aren't specifically illegal for larger game(deer), but there are laws about minimum caliber. No common AR round meets these laws, but the rifle it's self would be legal. The larger frame AR, the AR10, could easily accommodate a legal round.

As for availability: I'd say most people who have more than one gun, have a MSR-based rifle. I don't know what percentage are skillful with their rifle and what percentage bought one because they saw it in a movie.

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Loc: Finland
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255211 - 15/10/14 07:06 PM

In Finland we have some special laws for semi-auto weapons (both rifles and shotguns) for hunting use; only 3 ammo magazine is allowed and if yours weapon is purely military designed, it would be difficult to get hunting licence for it. At least you should justify yours application very well.

Some of us here have AR -based hunting rifles but domestic made VALMET rifles whose action bases to our army rifle (i.e. modified Kalasnikov) are more common. Most common semi-auto hunting rifle models in Finland are versions of Browning Bar and Benelli Argo. We have some old Remington Woodmasters too but their popularity is descending.

For shooting range purposes finnish hobby-shooters have very many type of semi-auto rifles and this kind of sporting increases itīs popularity whole time.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255212 - 15/10/14 08:09 PM

Quote:

What does the rest of the world think of these things? Ugly plastic garbage? A crime in the game field? A soul-less bullet throwing machine? As time-less as a cell phone?



I'm trying to avoid questions of taste and preference...
However, if you've grown up with traditionally stocked and balanced rifles and have done a lot of shotgun shooting, then that "modern" straight butt and steep pistol grip feels clumsy and slow in handling.
Semi-automatics tend to be more noisy in loading and unloading, a nuisance or disadvantage while hunting.
A good trigger is essential for good shooting. If a rifle has a bad trigger, it's simply no good.
As a handloader, I do not like to search for my empty cases.
As Igorrock said, here in Europe magazine capacity is limited by laws, so even no advantage in "firepower"... Besides, we know that the first shot counts most.

fuhrmann

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255217 - 15/10/14 08:45 PM

I'm looking at moving to the US. First rifle i'll be getting will be a cheap AR based rifle in .223. Why? Because i've never been allowed to own one here and i think they'd be a ton of fun. Don't see why they wouldnt work as well as anything else for hunting, and would happily go out with it. HOWEVER - i feel it wouldn't seem like going out hunting, as the rifle would be so unconventional for I.

Having said the above, I want an AR in .458 Socom

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #255237 - 16/10/14 04:57 AM

They are a ton of fun.
Compared to a properly stocked hunting rifle they are clumsy and rattle like tin garbage cans.
Still in many parts of the US as varmint control (coyote, rabbit, etc) rifles they are as common as dirt.

As sporting (target/silhouette/action) rifles they are very popular. This type of rifle can be built to be very accurate, also ergonomically very versatile - but it's expensive. Also as noted above, handloaders will at times need to chase and search for their brass.

For a precision rifle I prefer a bolt rifle.
For fast follow-up work I much prefer a double rifle.
For a walking around/stalking hunting rifle they're horrible.
For action matches (3-gun etc) they can't be beat.
They're excellent against gangs of coyote, especially with night optics.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Shackleton
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255269 - 16/10/14 03:02 PM

Quote:

. Caliber conversions are readily available,



"Caliber conversions". The one I'm interested in, rebarrel a AR10 type rifle(basically a.308 version of AR15)to .45 Raptor. Swage .45-70 bullets to size and use .460 S&W reloading data. .460 power out of a semiauto, with mags as small or large as you want.

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"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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Dumprat
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Reged: 20/02/14
Posts: 205
Loc: Vancouver island bc.
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Shackleton]
      #255272 - 16/10/14 04:42 PM

Rah rah black plastic shit! Just like every other gun forum, I was thinking this one was different. Or is it just the American part of it?

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Dumprat]
      #255276 - 16/10/14 06:10 PM

I hardly see this as "black plastic"



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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #255279 - 16/10/14 08:44 PM

For what it's worth I've run/competed/hunted with the black rifle in different capacities for about 20 years. It has it's place.

But - for ultra Victorian bliss, I prefer something much more like THIS .





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39881
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #255311 - 17/10/14 01:36 AM

An incident set my attitude to semi-autos very early in my shooting life.

I had a bolt action .222, a super accurate clunker Remington 788, still got it.

A friend bought a Sterling Semi-auto .22 RF with its much needed 15 shot magazine.

We see a rabbit and I hear, "BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG."

And the rabbit runs off everytime unscathed.

If I raised my rifle, a sitting rabbit, usually "BANG" and a dead rabbit.

Firepower does not make up for shooting ability and accuracy.

If I wanted to shoot like my early friend at 15 or 16 years old, I would use a shotgun.

I definitely do not think they are good for novice hunters or shooters. A single shot is what a tyro should start off with everytime. To learn safety and how to shoot accurately with the first shot.

I have used semi-auto rifles such as a SKK before they were stolen off us by idiot John Howard.

It was gutless and pretty useless shooting feral goats with the FMJ mil ammo. Filing off the points helped. But it was great fun.

I liked shooting it at target, plastic bottles filled with water etc. A fun gun.

I think they are good for culling, with proper ammo, where large numbers of beasts needs to be shot quickly and efficiently. A 3 shot magazine is a complete waste of time for a semi-auto, even a five shot, IMO. Probably a reason our European friends are not impressed by them. Ten shot or twenty plus shot is the way to go.

Lots of Victoria sambar hunters used to have BAR's, Woodmasters and the sort, for the running shots at sambar deer required during hound hunting or stalking.

I would like one in .223, another in .308 as a serious hunting / culling rifle, especially for uninvited visitors.

Shooting them say in a rapid fire target shoot would be fun. And once upon a time, citizens were encouraged to develop good shooting skills, in order for the populace to be able to defend their country or be called up in such a need. I think Mil style shooting clubs should be part of our normal way of life for the same reasons.

I like the old SLRs and FN FALs in 7.62. The Valmets were good. SKKs are cheap and nasty. AR47 a bit better and more fun with rapid fire. An accurate AR would be fun too. Nowadays largely academic unless one from here travels to faraway places!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39881
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #255312 - 17/10/14 01:39 AM

PS I would love lancasters .22 RF Stg44 styled rifle. Just for sheer fun and eccentricity.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #255315 - 17/10/14 02:54 AM

ARs used to be preferred by a minority when I moved to the US 12 years ago, and SKS, AK and other East Bloc semiautos were cheap hunting guns for rural people who could not afford to buy more sophisticated hunting guns. At the time, AKs and SKSs sold for less than $ 100 at Fleet Farm in rural Wisconsin. Everything changed after Newtown when the Dems threatened to ban all semiautos, and then forced ammo shortages with huge RFQs that swallowed up all ammo manufactured in the country. ARs suddenly became an investment and the market exploded.

Simultaneously, something happened for which the AR is an ideal tool - the explosion of pig populations in many parts of the US. States like Texas where I now live, even have counties offering money for every pig that a hunter / culler kills, and there are state contests with prizes for whoever kills the most number of pigs in a year. If you have a herd of feral pigs to kill, however good you might be with a bolt action rifle, even a Lee Enfield, you're not going to be as fast as someone with an AR. And Texas alone needs to kill 14 million feral pigs a year just to keep numbers in check. We don't do driven game shoots here, and there is a lot of feral game that needs to be shot. There isn't much better than an AR for that. You get chamberings like 450 Bushmaster and 458 SOCOM which would be ideal to hammer pigs at short ranges. You don't get these in Tavors, AUGs etc., and the bigger AK based rifles in 7x54R, 30-06 and 8x57 are too long and heavy in comparison with the handy little ARs.

Yes, ARs are not for everyone or for every hunting situation, but there are specific situations where they work better than all other rifle types.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #255316 - 17/10/14 02:57 AM

Ash,

If you have the option of moving here, don't hesitate. I came to the US as an immigrant, and I had lived in other parts of the world before. There is no more welcoming place in my experience, and you will find many, many friends especially if you hunt and shoot. You can also enjoy hunting with ARs, though some of our European friends might frown at the practice.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Dumprat
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Reged: 20/02/14
Posts: 205
Loc: Vancouver island bc.
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #255321 - 17/10/14 04:12 AM

I was trained on the canadian C7. Full auto and all. They are crap. The rage for AR variant rifles strikes me as more "Walter Mitty" nonsense.

Muzzle light, built from aluminum, clanks like a tractor engine, and chambered in .223 for people who can't take recoil. No thanks.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Dumprat]
      #255324 - 17/10/14 05:12 AM

Quote:

I was trained on the canadian C7. Full auto and all. They are crap. The rage for AR variant rifles strikes me as more "Walter Mitty" nonsense.

Muzzle light, built from aluminum, clanks like a tractor engine, and chambered in .223 for people who can't take recoil. No thanks.



Chambered in .223, eh? The 6.8 SPC, 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM, 50 Beowulf, 300 WSM, 300 Win and even 338 Lapua that are available on variations of the AR platform from different manufactruers, are all .223s in your expert view, I'm sure. Thank you for sharing your expertise, oh fount of knowledge and infinite wisdom!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Seancass
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Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Dumprat]
      #255327 - 17/10/14 05:56 AM

Quote:

Rah rah black plastic shit! Just like every other gun forum, I was thinking this one was different. Or is it just the American part of it?



I think you misunderstood my post and every other post in this thread. But thanks for your opinion.

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SharpsNitro
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Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255362 - 17/10/14 12:48 PM

Speaking of the AR platform, it's the rifle equivalent of the small block Chevy engine. Endlessly customizable. They range from the cheap plinkers that rattle to the high end precision guns that are as tight as a bank vault. The caliber options are only limited to what you can fit in the magazine and the quality of parts available can put you up into custom bolt gun price ranges.

There are also the older, classic designs like the Garand and M14. Then there are the newer players like the SCAR and others.

If some people don't like "black rifles" what do they think of the chassis based bolt guns?

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Ash
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Loc: Australia
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #255367 - 17/10/14 05:05 PM

Oh you reminded me SharpsNitro, rifle number 2 for when i move to America. Garand in .458 Win Mag. Like this but with a sportier, less chunky appearance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKXCu5oXgFY

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Dumprat
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Reged: 20/02/14
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Loc: Vancouver island bc.
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #255401 - 18/10/14 12:49 AM

There is nothing wrong with black rifles. Some are very good guns. The Colt/AR is just not one of them.

Tell that to an American and they respond like you have insulted their mother.

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Seancass
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Reged: 30/11/11
Posts: 21
Loc: IN, USA
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Dumprat]
      #255412 - 18/10/14 04:57 AM

That garand is about the coolest gun I've seen! Looks awesome!

Dumprat, which black rifles do you prefer?

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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1276
Loc: Queensland
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Seancass]
      #255424 - 18/10/14 09:55 AM

I cant see the point of chambering these semi autos in all these new odd ball rounds ,most semi auto were always too expensive for me, although i got a H and K SL7 at a bargain price which had the polygonal rifling and qd scope mt, was a good rifle but didnt like steel cased ammo ,sold it when i needed the money for something else ,before the Gun Steal Back .Also had a new SKS i bought from an obnoxious gun dealer in Margaret Street in Toowoomba ,he gave me a hard time about what i was going to do with it ,i wish i had told him to keep it and shove it up his arse .Kept it for a while had some fun with it sold it ,clunky things really ,no good for hunting .Always did want an AR10 7.62 but were always too dear .would prefer semi auto 22s and semi auto shotguns ,of course you cant have them here anymore .
Ash ,i think you would be better moving to Canada ,my nephews there, got his gun licence and wants to live there permanently thinks its so good !!!!!!

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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1653
Loc: Australia
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: 500Boswell]
      #255430 - 18/10/14 10:41 AM

Sean - yay! You made posting that link worth it. Neat, hey? They look like it kicks less too!

500Bos - the girlfriend is in Oklahoma

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Seancass
.224 member


Reged: 30/11/11
Posts: 21
Loc: IN, USA
Re: The Modern Sporting Rifle [Re: Ash]
      #255435 - 18/10/14 12:39 PM

Quote:

500Bos - the girlfriend is in Oklahoma



That's a good reason to pick USA! Of course, there's plenty of reasons not to. I moved a thousand miles for a girl, seems like moving 10,000 miles is perfectly reasonable.

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