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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
which one of 2
      #25512 - 01/02/05 01:41 PM

If the options of which double
were limited to the Winchester
Grand European or the Beretta
689 Gold which would you go for?
There is a $1500 US differnce.
If you have experince with either
please advise.

Thanks
Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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Spring
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Reged: 01/04/04
Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25515 - 01/02/05 02:41 PM

I've never shot an over and under rifle (though do I love my o/u shotguns) as I must say I'm quite partial to side by sides. I did see a Beretta 689 when in New York last month. Aside from the fact that the rifle was in a format that was completely new to me, I must say it seemed very well made and I think I would have enjoyed shooting it.
Traditional dangerous game hunters have favored side by sides as compared to o/u's thinking that they can be reloaded faster as the gun does not need to be opened as wide in order to insert new bullets. That said, in terms of shooting a gun for accuracy, when was the last time you saw anything but an over and under in sporting clays or Olympic competition? Both designs have merit, and I'm sure the 689 has its advantages, but you won't see many when wandering the plains of Africa.

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k80
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: Spring]
      #25517 - 01/02/05 02:58 PM

In the calibers offered I would
be in the 30 cal. range. Not as
a "DGR". This was to be about the
the rifle not the caliber.

Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25529 - 01/02/05 10:19 PM

k80
USA dealer asking price for a Grand European Winnie 30-06 in as new condition is usually around US$4000 and the Beretta about US$5500 if it has factory scope mounts.
If you have the bucks, the Beretta is most likely the better proposition.
The Winchester Grand European is a very well made rifle but sadly they were NOT factory regulated and many/most do not shoot their two barrel groups together.
The barrels were assembled to a pre determined specification in a bid to dodge regulation and of course it didn't work.
They can be regulated but this adds to the original price.

The Beretta would have been factory regulated and should shoot ok but before buying, it would be a good idea to shoot it and see what the grouping is like.(if possible)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #25539 - 02/02/05 05:55 AM

In reply to:

k80
USA dealer asking price for a Grand European Winnie 30-06 in as new condition is usually around US$4000 and the Beretta about US$5500 if it has factory scope mounts.
If you have the bucks, the Beretta is most likely the better proposition.
The Winchester Grand European is a very well made rifle but sadly they were NOT factory regulated and many/most do not shoot their two barrel groups together.
The barrels were assembled to a pre determined specification in a bid to dodge regulation and of course it didn't work.
They can be regulated but this adds to the original price.

The Beretta would have been factory regulated and should shoot ok but before buying, it would be a good idea to shoot it and see what the grouping is like.(if possible)





The above is gospel! The Beretta is a far better rifle, and worth the difference between the two!

However, I'm one who is not too enamored with the O/U configuration, or a rimless cartridge in any double rifle. That being as it is, the Beretta is a bargain compared to the Winchester!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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butchloc
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25540 - 02/02/05 06:51 AM

definately the beretta, i have 2 one in 3006 and another in 9.3x74R wiht a set of 20 ga. bbls to fit either action. Both rifle barrels are fitted with scope mts & iron sights. the 06 will group around 1-1.5" consecutively at 100 and 9.3 about 2-2.5" in both cases the wood is about AAA grade and nearly matching. Both the win. and browning express are similarly made, & are definately less in quality. I bought the 06 for 5000 and the 9.3 for 3200 the shotgun bbls were 1500 to which I had to add about 350 for the foreend wood, metal and fitting.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25544 - 02/02/05 08:15 AM

k80,

I have seen and used both and would definately say the Berretta is a better built gun.

A friend purchased a Berreta last year in 9.3 and it is superb.

Also, aren't the Winchester Grand European's old models - ie they don't make them
any more as opposed to the Berreta that can be purchased new ?

Generally, don't buy doubles on price - you really do get what you pay for !!!

Good luck.

500 Nitro

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: which one of 2 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #25547 - 02/02/05 12:37 PM

I have experince with the Beretta
shotgun line but not their rifles.
I am suprised no one mentioned the
single trigger of the Winchester.
A double being regulated is something
I assumed(and we know what that
gets you).

Thanks
Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25549 - 02/02/05 12:44 PM


k80,

My friends Berretta has a single trigger as well.

Since neither were going to be DGR's (unless he likes
playing Russian Roulette !!!), I didn't think it was worth
mentioning !!!

On small calibre doubles I don't think it makes any difference
but personally I would prefer Double Triggers just to get separate
mechanisms AND because my DG Doubles has double triggers
and I don't want to have to relearn every time I pick up a different rifle.

500 Nitro

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25550 - 02/02/05 01:42 PM

...not able to opine on the winchester...but did purchase a 'gallery-edition' version of the gold sable from the ny gallery about a year and a half ago...

...imho, the 689 is an outstanding rifle (factory regulated to moa at 40 metress, which has been personally attested to at 50 yards with the standard fixed sights, exhibition grade + wood, exquisite case coloring, beautifully made, well balanced, etc.) and a fairly good value (retail with the extra set of smooth bore barrels was around usd 9,250, but you can usually bargain below retail, especially if you have purchased previously or if you avoid the galleries altogether)...

...my only complaint has been with the smooth bore barrels, which only fire certain types of ammo, and which are nearly impossible to aim with the euro-style stock that came with the 689 (which, in fairness, assists in terms of sight acquisition with the 9.3 barrels)...

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25551 - 02/02/05 01:43 PM

In reply to:

I am suprised no one mentioned the
single trigger of the Winchester.



The Beretta was/is offered with either single or double trigger systems.
The Winchester grand euro was to the best of my knowledge only available with single trigger of the inertia type.
The Grand European single trigger is very reliable as is the ejector system.
These Winnies were first available in the early 80's and were pretty well finished by the middle 80's.
Most, but not all, came with factory fitted EAW QD scope rings.
I've seen them for sale in 257 Roberts, 270 Win, 7x57 R, 7x65 R, 30-06 and 9.3x74 R.
Once regulated they are a great small cal double rifle and I have used one on lots of Australian medium and small game over quite a few years in 7x65 R.
I regulated it to shoot the 160 gn Woodleigh.

The Beretta would be your best bet though so long as it has the factory scope mounts.
The Beretta o/u rifles that I've handled all had a very narrow top rib of about 1/4 inch and this is not really wide enough to allow a solid installation of common type QD bases.
The factory claw bases are a saddle type which are fully supported by the top of the upper barrel surface and this is the best method for guns with small or narrow top rib IMO.
If you bought a Beretta with no scope mounts, and then had to get claw mounts fitted, it would cost a LOT of money compared to the overall cost/value of the firearm.


Edited by 4seventy (02/02/05 02:12 PM)

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: which one of 2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #25554 - 02/02/05 02:23 PM

4seventy

The Beretta o/u rifles that I've handled all had a very narrow top rib of about 1/4 inch and this is not really wide
enough to allow a solid installation of common type QD bases.
If you bought a Beretta with no scope mounts, and then had to get claw mounts fitted, it would cost a LOT of
money compared to the overall cost/value of the firearm.


A gunsmith down here just put on a set of custom made saddle mounts on a Berretta - very easy to do
and not a great cost (don't know exact cost but it wasn't overly expensive fom what someone said).
Good thing is that if the mounts are taken off, all you need to do is put in 2 grub screws
and the holes are filled.

500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #25567 - 02/02/05 10:55 PM

In reply to:

A gunsmith down here just put on a set of custom made saddle mounts on a Berretta - very easy to do
and not a great cost (don't know exact cost but it wasn't overly expensive fom what someone said).




500
The mounts I was referring to were the Factory "claw" mounts.

Are you saying this gunsmith is fitting "claw" saddle mounts of equal quality to those fitted by the Beretta factory?
If so how could they be "very easy to do and not a great cost."

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500Nitro
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #25596 - 03/02/05 08:36 AM


4seventy,

I'll find out the exact details. I don't think they wre claw mounts, I think they
were made up / modified bases with Warne QD's but I'll check.

500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #25604 - 03/02/05 03:12 PM

In reply to:

I don't think they wre claw mounts, I think they
were made up / modified bases with Warne QD's but I'll check.




If they were Warne QD's that would explain it as they are a much less expensive system than factory claws.
Also are you sure they were "Saddle" bases and not "Straddle" bases, as there is also a big difference in those two systems regarding price? (and strength)

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: which one of 2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #25811 - 07/02/05 12:03 PM

I have narrowed my search to the Beretta.
Thanks for your input. Now which trigger?
I have one spotted with the single,and one
with double. Condition and wood are close.
Do all these rifles have ejectors,etc..
Any other input is welcome.

Thanks
Ken



--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25815 - 07/02/05 01:15 PM

In reply to:

Now which trigger?
I have one spotted with the single,and one
with double.
Do all these rifles have ejectors,etc..




All the Beretta double rifles that I've seen have had ejectors.

Regarding triggers it really depends on what you are used to using.

This will maybe piss off the traditionalists, but, especially when dealing with non dangerous game rifles, a quality single trigger is WAY better than 2 triggers IMO!

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larcher
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25924 - 09/02/05 06:46 AM

Sorry, there is still some idiotics free and alive. Has somebody documentation about this Win grand european?
It looks like a BROWNING, is it?
If it's a Browning, we are falling in the everlasting question Beretta or Browning. Both are excellent.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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Rusty
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Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: which one of 2 [Re: larcher]
      #25931 - 09/02/05 08:01 AM

I remember several years ago handling a Winchester Grand European O/U in .257 Roberts. They wanted $2,700 for it.


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Rusty
We band of brothers!
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DPhillips
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: Rusty]
      #25935 - 09/02/05 08:37 AM

There was a Butch Searcy 300 H&H for sale on GunsAmerica a while back. I don't know if its still there or not. Was built on a Ruger Red Label.

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4seventy
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: larcher]
      #25937 - 09/02/05 09:41 AM

In reply to:

Has somebody documentation about this Win grand european?
It looks like a BROWNING, is it?



larcher,
No it is not a Browning.
The Grand European Rifles were built on the Winchester 101 20 gauge frame and they also did some combination guns on 12 gauge frames as well.
Like the Winchester 101 shotguns, the Grand European rifles were made in Japan and are a very strong well made rifle.
I have been trying my best to wear one out in 7x65R for years!
It's still going strong however!

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: which one of 2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #25940 - 09/02/05 11:19 AM

I emailed Coles Gunsmithing about a
shotgun barrel for the Beretta. The
answer suprised me. They indicated
a shotgun barrel could not be "safely"
fit to a 689.

Ken
San Antonio

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25941 - 09/02/05 11:28 AM

The Beretta Factory should be able to fit a set of shotgon barrels but I would imagine it could be quite expensive.

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: which one of 2 [Re: 4seventy]
      #25944 - 09/02/05 12:40 PM

Alan: Coles is the place to get
Beretta stuff done in the U.S..
Beretta USA is slow to respond.

Ken



--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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bonanza
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Re: which one of 2 [Re: k80]
      #25945 - 09/02/05 01:34 PM

Vic,

Where did you learn to write? You style has a very colonial grammatical structure? I wish I could write that nicely. Were you educated outside of the US?

Regards;
Blair

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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