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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Wolfgang
.224 member


Reged: 02/06/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Germany
Gibbs Double Rifle
      #254849 - 08/10/14 10:53 PM

Hi,

have a question concerning a 1900 build DB from Gibbs.
Webley Long bar, cal .47o, original case with owners sign.

Wanted to know the price from an auction house.
The guy told me, after looking four days at this weapon, that
the barrel would be exchanged and is not original.
From Gibbs i got no further information in their ledgers.

So :
does somebody can explane, how you can see, if it is not the original barrel.


You can take a look at the weapon on my website

www.waffenkofferundsafariausrüstung.de




then thumbnail alte Waffen.

Glad about any answer

Wolfgang


It looks the same like this

web page

and like this except my gun has selous plates, they are original, i was told

web page

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3529
Loc: Colorado
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: Wolfgang]
      #254874 - 09/10/14 01:24 AM

I would say that if the gun can be accurately dated to 1900, it predates the adoption of the 470NE as a replacement for the various 450s when the ban on 450s came about in 1906-07.
Supposedly the 470 was designed in 1900 but was not commercially available until 1907.
Obviously, it could have been rebored or rebarreled to 470.
Looking at your pictures, the one of the barrel flats is blurry but you can see that there are two weights of cordite charge stamped on them. My guess is a rebore to 470.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (09/10/14 01:41 AM)

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Wolfgang
.224 member


Reged: 02/06/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Germany
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #254880 - 09/10/14 03:49 AM

Hi Huvius,
thanks for Your answer.
Have written a mail to Gibbs to reach some more information.

Save Your day and allways good hunting

Wolfgang

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: Wolfgang]
      #254895 - 09/10/14 08:09 AM

The photo in the first link is a Webley A&WC in .450 NE 3 1/4" from 1905.
I've seen this rifle before.

Edited by 4seventy (09/10/14 08:36 AM)

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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3529
Loc: Colorado
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: Wolfgang]
      #254897 - 09/10/14 08:13 AM

Wolfgang, remember that virtually all of the Gibbs ledgers were destroyed when the Germans bombed Bristol.
Mr. Crudgington will be able to tell you when it was made but maybe not much more.
BTW, those Selous type plates look to be very well done. I am not sure if Gibbs offered anything like that on a double as they did on the Farqharsons but the forming of the steel on your gun is very similar to those on a Farq though they do not meet up to the action body.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #254900 - 09/10/14 08:47 AM

Quote:


Looking at your pictures, the one of the barrel flats is blurry but you can see that there are two weights of cordite charge stamped on them. My guess is a rebore to 470.




Wolfgang
I agree with Huvius that it looks like the original barrels of your .470 NE Gibbs have been rebored from .450 NE.

Edited by 4seventy (09/10/14 03:06 PM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #254907 - 09/10/14 12:19 PM

Quote:

The photo in the first link is a Webley A&WC in .450 NE 3 1/4" from 1905.
I've seen this rifle before.



Yeah, if you come to visit me you can see it and shoot it for yourself!

http://rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/gibbs_450/

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #254908 - 09/10/14 12:24 PM

Another difference in the two rifles - mine has chopper lump barrels, and the other rifle appears to have shoe lump barrels.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #254911 - 09/10/14 02:59 PM

Quote:

Yeah, if you come to visit me you can see it and shoot it for yourself!




Sounds good to me Curl, thanks. I might have to see if I can organise that.

Regarding Wolfgang's double, do you have any thoughts on an approximate build date?

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #254932 - 09/10/14 09:10 PM

I can't see details in his photo of the barrel flats. It would be helpful to have a clear and well-focused photo to answer much of what he asks.

Significantly, there is no scimitar nitro proof stamp, which tells us it was proofed before implementation of the proof rules of 1904. That stamp is present on my gun, you will notice. Certainly his rifle is earlier than my rifle.

His may have had only London black powder proof before becoming a .470NE. I have a feeling it was a .450BPE. If it were an early .450NE it would be stamped to indicate nitro proof, probably with the stamp "NITRO PROOVED".

The dolls head on his rifle looks like the older pattern normally seen on the BPE rifles.

But I emphasize that without a clear photograph of the barrel flats it is near impossible to say more.

Thinking further, my theory washes away when you consider that any conversion or re-bore of this rifle likely happened after the 1904 proof rules, so why no scimitar? It should have a re-proof stamp and standard 1904 proofs in that scenario. I don't think the .470NE existed prior to 1904. Could this be a Bubba re-bore?

It really looks like some overstamps and altered proofing. We need clear photographs. I would be very hesitant about this rifle without knowing more.

Yes Al, my door is open to your visit any time.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Wolfgang
.224 member


Reged: 02/06/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Germany
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #254964 - 10/10/14 08:08 AM

Hi, all of You Double Rilfle man,
Thanks a lot for giving answers.

Gibbs remailed ( for the first time ;-))
The Rifle is build in 1902, wholly made by Webley and Scott and the the name done by Gibbs.This is sure because of the B before the serieal number.
The metal working of the " selous plates " is really very nice and exactly.
There are no further informations coming from Gibbs.

CONCERNING TO THE MONO BLOCK

I have used my operation magnification glasses 4 times factor and will try to write it down. It seems, a picture wont give any more information

right barrel

first line

nf then a proofmark than ( probably overstemped 480 ) with cordite75 - 500 max

second line

three proof marks than overstemped 470 the numbers under are even with manification not to recognize ( probably with a lot of fantasy 450 )

last line

70 GRS cordite


left barrel the same

so naturaly i can make pictures, but no hope to see it better.

After all : thanks a lot and allways a good gun in your hands

by the way : in the new DDR.2 formely called Bundesrepublik Deutschland, the ochlocratic politions try to keep all the weapons away from owners. And try to destroy our hunting pleasure.

Thats no further my country.

Its a pitty !

Wolfgang

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: Wolfgang]
      #254983 - 10/10/14 10:44 PM

From this information I believe it originally was a .450 with black powder proofs only. At a later date it was bored out to .470NE but it was not re-proofed. Someone simply overstamped the black powder proofs and added non-official "nitro" proofs.

Any .470 proofed in England will have the scimitar nitro proof stamp that came into use with the rules of 1904.

It was a Webley A&W, not the Webley A&W C.

This is the reason your purchaser shied away from it, taking issue with the barrels.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #254999 - 11/10/14 06:56 AM

CptCurl: " I have a feeling it was a .450BPE. If it were an early .450NE it would be stamped to indicate nitro proof, probably with the stamp "NITRO PROOVED. The dolls head on his rifle looks like the older pattern normally seen on the BPE rifles." ....." I believe it originally was a .450 with black powder proofs only. At a later date it was bored out to .470NE but it was not re-proofed. Someone simply overstamped the black powder proofs and added non-official "nitro" proofs. Any .470 proofed in England will have the scimitar nitro proof stamp that came into use with the rules of 1904."
_________________________
I am in full agreement with everything CptCurl says in his posts regarding this rifle.

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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #255006 - 11/10/14 01:43 PM

Not wanting to up set the OP of this tread (very nice rifle by the way), but I have seen a lot of BP doubles reproved for Nitro & these are considered safe after they have been reproved, there is no magic in reproving only testing the strength of the action at that time, I have also read of many people in old Africa shooting there 450BP with the full nitro load the only down side was the heavier recoil, so they said, I can imagine it made them loss sooner ?

Even if this rifle was NP it would have been better left in 450 in either way I'm thinking ?

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Gibbs Double Rifle [Re: CptCurl]
      #255054 - 12/10/14 04:58 PM

Quote:

From this information I believe it originally was a .450 with black powder proofs only. At a later date it was bored out to .470NE but it was not re-proofed. Someone simply overstamped the black powder proofs and added non-official "nitro" proofs.




It sure looks like that is the story Roscoe.

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