SharpsNitro
.375 member
Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
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Thought I would see if any other board members shoot dedicated subsonic loads. Outside of paper punching and highly specialized situations they don't have a lot of value. Hey are a crowd pleaser at the range though.
I've been shooting .308 and 300AAC loads suppressed and it's a lot of fun. The .308 is in a DTA Covert (16" 1:8" twist), Lapua brass, 200gr Lapua subsonic bullet, 10gr Trail Boss and CCI magnum primers have yielded 1/4" groups for me at 100yds. Suppressed it sounds like an air rifle. With a 200yd zero for regular loads this gives me 3.8mils drop at 100yds. The 300AAC is new and I haven't gotten too far into it yet, it's in an AR platform and the bolt and buffer noise dominates.
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mauserand9mm
.400 member
Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 1074
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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I have used sub-sonic loads in my 458WM using 405gn cast projectiles and Trailboss but have only shot rabbits with them - I think the projectiles would be too hard to use on larger game. I use off-the-shelf synthetic coated, hard cast projectiles.
I've heard of people using sub-sonic loads in 45/70 to shoot deer (not sure what size deer though).
Edited by mauserand9mm (05/10/14 08:39 PM)
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Iowa_303s
.400 member
Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1016
Loc: Iowa, USA
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I use subsonic hollow points in my CZ452fs .22LR for squirrels and rabbits. Nice and quiet, does not spook other potential targets.
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Matt
formerly known as Iowa_303
"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."
"Enkelkinder über alles"
Edited by Iowa_303 (06/10/14 09:48 PM)
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SharpsNitro
.375 member
Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
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I'm planning to try my 308 loads at 600yds on paper. Even with a 20moa base I probably can't get there by elevation adjustment alone (my scope has 28mils). I could get there through the reticle (Horus H-37) or through a combination of elevation and reticle hold.
Edited by SharpsNitro (07/10/14 01:15 PM)
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40644
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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I only use sub-sonics in my centrefire when poaching on Snake Island.  Absolutely a JOKE only !!! Gryphon may get the "joke". I do know someone who got caught with a barrel "extension" coming off the island, but many years ago ...
More seriously I have bought a whole bunch of different ammo for my .22 RF from HV to sub-sonics. To try out to find the "sweetist" shooting ammo. My old ammo has run out and no longer available.
Have never tried centrefire sub-sonic loads.
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John aka NitroX
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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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SharpsNitro
.375 member
Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
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I swapped out the standard buffer and spring on my AR with a JP Enterprises Silent Capture system with the lightest spring. The rifle now cycles fine including last round bolt hold open with my subsonic loads (220gr SMK over 9.0gr of Hodgdon Lil Gun) instead of being a single shot. The JP system eliminates the buffer/spring noise, very fun suppressed. The sub loads are dirty though, makes me want a piston system. I'm tempted to spend the $200 to get the ATF tax stamp so I can run the short barrel (I would get the 8.5").
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40644
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Anyone else used them?
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John aka NitroX
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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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Snowman3
.224 member
Reged: 02/10/15
Posts: 18
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
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I use CCI QUIET in my 22LR for rabbits at a friend's farmlet near a built up area. At approx 700 fps it has about the same noise and power as a noisy PCP .22 air rifle.
Just for a laugh I bought a pack of Lapua .308Win 200 grain FMJ to try in my Tikka. It's meant for a suppressed rifle but us peasantry aren't trusted with such evil tools here. I'm told it's about as loud as a 22 magnum. After I work out the bullet drop any remaining rounds will go towards bugs bunny. I'll have to make those shots count though, A$93 for a pack of 20 in Perth! At least the brass is well worth keeping...
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Homer
.416 member
Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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G'Day Fella's,
Sharps Nitro, like wise to above, I also use sub-sonic .22LR ammo in my .22 LR rifles and load up sub sonic ammo for the 7.62x39 and .308 (rifles) and .40 S&W (pistol), in particular.
I cant remember the reloading data off the top of my head but I use it in developing and assessing the sound suppressors that manufacture.
It's a whole lot of FUN and Trail Boss (apart from being expensive), is just perfect for this job in the rifles!
Hope that helps
Doh!
Homer
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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"
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93x64mm
.416 member
Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4409
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
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The weirdest thing is not to hear a 'bang' when you expect it!
I was doing loads for my .32-20, 2.5gn Trailboss & 115 gn lead cast, all I heard was the hammer drop on the M92, no kick at all!
I thought I had a miss fire....waited the 30 seconds before ejecting all the while cursing myself on making a dud, but just before doing so looked up at the chronograph - 800fps had registered!
Someone close at the range must have fired exactly the same time I did, completely masking any noise my pip squeak load did!
Yes they do go 'bang' - but much quieter than the full loads, not to bad at the accuracy for those old sights (more my eyes), actually better than the full loads!
Would be fun if you could still legally buy a silencer here in Oz - would only be for small game up like rabbits & possibly taking a dingo at not to far distance maybe 50m.
93x64mm
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Rolf
.333 member
Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 414
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
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Gentlemen,
as Germany/Bavaria changed the law about aquiring sound suppressores for hunting rifles last year, I have now the opportunity to test rifles in the following weapons and calibers:
- .22 lr. in Sako P94S rifle
- 300 Whisper in a rifle "Titan 3" from Rössler Austria (barrel 52cm with a 200mm/8" twist)
- H&K MP5 civil version (semi-auto only)
The Sako in .22 lr is even with suppressor and sopersonic ammunition rather quiet, with suppressor and subsonic ammunition I am wondering what happened with the bullet/whether it is struck in the barrel?
The 300 Whisper was tested in Subsonic with 240grs Sierra HPBT Match with Kemira N110 (obtained precision ca. 50mm at 100m for 5 shots) and supersonic with Sierra 125grs SP Pro-Hunter, also with N110 (ca. 40mm at 100m for 5 shots), Optic is a Burris 10power scope.
The ammunition for the semi-auto-rifle MP5-civil is currently in test, I tried the 154grs FMJ Flat Point bullet from Geco (RWS) with Kemira N340.
Precision is nearly the same at 25m and 50m as the MagTech 115 grs JHP factory ammunition.
Optic is a EO-tech 552 holosight.
And now the question:
does anybody know whether the heavy hunting bullets in .308 dia. can be modified to open up on animal tissue at subsonic speeds?
i.e. drilling a large hollow point in Sierra 220grs SPRN
Any information would be appreciated!
regards
Rolf
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Homer
.416 member
Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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G'Day Fella's,
Rolf, getting bullets that are specifically designed to expand at 2000 and 3000fps, to expand at 1000fps or less, is a major problem!
This problem has brought some promising new bullet manufactures (I can't remember their name?), into the market place but I'm not totally convinced of these bullets viability, in a conventional Hunting situation!
In my experience with Sub-Sonic ammo in a conventional hunting situation, I'm left believing you still need to aim for either the Brain ("Australian Heart Shot"), or a Spine shot on these Game animals (Deer, Pigs etc)! As we all know, this is not always an option, as most Game animals don't cooperate that way, in bringing about their own demise.
FYI, I have had an initial play with casting up soft lead bullets and then coating them with Powder Coating material. This gives you a very soft bullet, that you should be able to safely run at 1000fps, and when it makes contact with the Heart-Lung area of a Game animal, the bullet should expand.
Unfortunately, I've not had the time to put this theory into practice, as I'm been to busy addressing more important things in my life!
I have also set up conventional hunting bullets in my lathe, and machined weakening grooves in the nose area of their jacket. In theory again, this "MAY" weaken the jacket and "MAY" promote expansion at lower velocities but................... it is still just a theory at present!!!
Hope that helps
Doh!
Homer
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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"
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stug
.275 member
Reged: 20/08/14
Posts: 69
Loc: Canterbury, New Zealand
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There is a company in the states called LeHigh that make subsonic projectiles in some calibres, .30 and .338 are some. They work well but are not cheap.
https://www.lehighbullets.com/product-category/subsonic-bullets/
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eagle27
.400 member
Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
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Quote:
Anyone else used them?
I've found Winchester 22RF 40 & 42 gr subsonics to be the most accurate in most 22 rifles I've tried subsonic ammo in. They also function well in semi autos and with the good sized hollow point built in they perform well on small game.
Some other brands of 22RF are poor performers accuracy wise in subsonic guise, Remington to name one had exceedingly poor accuracy.
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Homer
.416 member
Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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G'Day Fella's,
As Stug and Eagle 27 mentioned, plus here is an Aussie bullet maker, that also makes some bullets for Sub-Sonic use.
https://www.facebook.com/Aussie-Copper-Projectiles-211324615740481/
Hope that helps
Doh!
Homer
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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"
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mchughcb
.333 member
Reged: 21/02/14
Posts: 397
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Rolf if you are using a drilling at sub sonic velocity then the bullet to try is the 220gr hp from Bt energetics. You will find le heigh and acp will not stabilize because they are too long. The Bt energetic really expand well at 1000fps. In fact they will not penetrate a fallow with a chest shot but the 220gr ensure maximum energy at subsonic velocity.
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Well_Well_Well
.333 member
Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 310
Loc: Australia
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I'm not sure that's what Rolf meant, but fascinating nonetheless.
Funny somebody should bring up a 458, I've been considering a 300blk, with cast 200-240 grain projectiles, but a 458 with 400-500 grain cast is something I'm very interested in.....
I can't think of it as anything other than a 22 with more punch, and certainly I agree brain shots are to be the SOP.
I bought a Remington to rebarrel, but made that most critical mistake - I shot the donor......
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mchughcb
.333 member
Reged: 21/02/14
Posts: 397
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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I heard people are using 458 socom with 600gr projectiles at 1000fps with good results.
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40644
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Some good news. At the Firearms Act Regulations review meeting tonight, there was mention of what storage is required for suppressors. So here's hoping they become legally purchaseable in SA later this year. Will see what is required to purchase one still though.
The storage and safe keeping requirements for firearms especially more than 20 and again over 30 is looking more onerous, cctv and/or alarm systems, plus a decent safe.
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John aka NitroX
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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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Homer
.416 member
Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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G'Day Fella's,
John, Thank You for the update!
Regards
Homer
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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"
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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member
Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
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I really like subsonic and suppressed loads. They grow on you and seem so much more pleasant than loud guns that it's tough to go back.
I developed loads with Lehigh's .510" and 150gn brass .308" subsonic bullets listed above in 300AAC. The only problem is the 150 grain ones are light! The .510 ones weigh 640 grains and with a 70 grain .243" bullet inserted int the hollow point to act as a wedge come to 710. It haven't shot anything but paper with them to date, but the petals are designed to fracture off rather than unfold like a barnes X. Mainly I use 750gn amaxs and now have a mold for cheaper practice.
Here's the 510 on a DTA SRS action. In the picture the barrel is 20" but its since been cut down to 16."
This is by far my favorite suppressed gun:
A replica on a No1 MK III with only a few differences from the original (stainless baffles, a non-recessed barrel and thus full length bolt, and a different mag adapter to use unmodified 1911 mags). It haven't shot any critters with it yet, but have had it in hand 3 times now chasing off a nosey 2yr old black bear that liked to scratch at my garage door. Was always either a car or the house behind him! It is great fun lobbing 45 acp out to silly ranges.
Finally, just because, a MAC11A1 with a 9mm upper. Not "practical" for anything but grins, and it never fails.
Bob
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"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"
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Homer
.416 member
Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
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G'Day Fella's,
Wow Omnivorous Bob, That is a nice collection!
Thank You for the insight into what you are doing!!!
Doh!
Homer
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"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"
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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member
Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
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Rolf, at the top of the picture are two LeHigh brass bullets that might be close to your idea of drilling out 220gn .308" bullets. They are 150 grains but the huge hollow point is meant to hold a .17 caliber bullet to act as a wedge and drive expansion at subsonic velocity so that should add another 20 grains or so. I've got no idea how well they work in practice but would love to see some experiments with ballistic gel and the basic bullet compared to one with a .17 cal inserted both point forwards and point backwards. I don't know how difficult it might be (or expensive) to get them to export. I'm not thrilled at the idea of paying to fire two bullets with every shot, but after load development I only plan to shoot them at critters.
On the left side are 3 640 grain .510" Lehighs, the bottom an empty, the middle one with a 70 grain Hornady .243" bullet inserted point forward and the top one with a hornady inserted base forward. I've got zero idea what works best but am trying to figure out ways to experiment. 21.0 grains of Blue Dot gives exactly 1000fps with the bare bullet. You can see how deeply the hollow goes.
The other bullet is a 750 grain Hornady Amax. They're accurate and available reasonable locally, but my next move after settling on a Lehigh load is to play with cast powder coated bullets to reduce the expense and increase the volume of practice. I've got a bunch of flat point 700 grain rounds cast and coated but haven't started load development yet.
Homer, I hope you keep us posted how your bullets work out. I hope the flat makes up for the low velocity and like you also made up some pure lead ones in the hopes they will be soft enough to expand at low speed but it will be fall before I get to try any in action.
Cheers, Bob
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"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"
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mchughcb
.333 member
Reged: 21/02/14
Posts: 397
Loc: Victoria, Australia
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Bt Energetics versus LeHigh. The 220gr Bt energetics will open up at subsonic velocity and will be very stable at 1000fps in a 1:11 twist.
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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member
Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
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Nice! I like that is both a full 220 grains and blunt. I would presume it would work better than the Lehigh 150 grainers.
Bob
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"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"
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