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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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TennHillBilly
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Reged: 17/05/13
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Loc: Tennessee Plateau

Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#247563 - 20/05/14 07:13 AM

Started 'nibbling' away at the lumps, cut and fit, cut..... It seems to me the equally important step is to ensure the locking bolt is fitting well. As well as the rotation into the body. I took the locking bolt, now that the action is stripped, and tried the bolt on the shotgun barrels. Frankly, I was amazed at how much 'slop'.....clearance if you wish.....there was between the barrels and the bolt. And yet, this AyA locks up tight! You can see the block and lumps starting to come together. I feel fairly well convinced that the 2 piece block is the way to go if one doesn't have a real milling machine! The lumps are still a snug fit into the frame but, I dare not do any sanding/stoning 'til the pieces are brazed. In the pic you can see the 'dollshead is starting to enter the action.

Edited by TennHillBilly (20/05/14 07:15 AM)

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#247654 - 22/05/14 07:28 AM

A little more work on the lumps today. The pieces are getting closer to a near final closing position. I have ordered what is supposed to be an adjustable reamer so as to match the 8.83mm hinge pin. The marker arrow at the front shows where I need to shave off several thousands from the bottom of the block. Said another way, the 'T' slot is too deep. Easier though to take material off the block than guess the real/final depth of the slot! Supposedly, there's supposed to be several thousands clearance between action flats and barrel flats. There seems to be conflicting opinion with my 1934 Gunsmith's Bible. The bites will wait 'til later
Also the bottom rear shows where the square block is binding....some rounding off needed. The little projection sticking out the rear is the locking bolt. That is in there to make sure the rear angle , or curve, of the front lump....called the 'bolt run up'( learned that from Mr. Brown's book)...actually moves the bolt as it closes.

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aromakr
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#247978 - 27/05/14 11:45 PM

TennHillBilly:

Looking back at your photo's I noticed a picture of a beautiful swivel breach flinter, do you have the plans for that swivel breach?
Bob

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: aromakr]
#248215 - 31/05/14 12:40 AM

aromaker, thanks, yes. The plans are by Dave Waters, 'Building a Swivel Breech'. I think he still has a web site, or you might find them on American Long Rifle' site. Come in notebook form, many pics/drawings, what parts to buy and modify. I think I paid around $25 for them. Bill

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#248519 - 06/06/14 12:03 AM

A little progress in fitting the lumps, and bites. Finally got my adjustable reamer and opened the hole to just fit the pin. It would have been much easier to have reamed the hole to begin with.....had I had the foresight to have the reamer on hand! I have cut and filed the 'bites', using my jeweler's saw, thinking everything was fitting fine. One pic shows the lumps fitted to the action. I had to flat file a good bit from the bottom of the block to allow it to slide onto the 'T'. There must be some clearance....as mentioned....between the barrel flats, and the watertable, or action flats.
Note in the pic that when locked, the lever is slightly to the right. That's supposed to be the correct position. I've read as the action wears, the lever moves to center.

Everything was going well until I put the locking bolt cam and lever in place. The bolt can only move as far rearward as the cam will allow. The pic shows where the rear of the front lump is catching, not allowing the lumps to seat. I must smoke and file a bit more of a radius.....but, it looked right!

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#248835 - 12/06/14 05:01 AM

I drilled the first hole(s) to hold the ejector rod. I started by using the 5/8's bit as a spud to line up the bore and clamp the block in the X,Y vise so the angle would be correct. I want the hole parallel to the flats. Personally, I've found drill bits wander so I started with a #29....it was a new bit, and much smaller than 3/16's I'll work up to. True to form, the bit came out a few thousands to the left. I remounted the block, muzzle end up, and used a center drill to 'warble' a tad to the right so as to drill the next size up. I'll drill another size hole larger before finally reaming to 3/16's.
I might add at this point I've inserted some brass shims in the 'T' slot to hold the lumps and block tightly in their correct position. I will not braze them until the blocks are threaded and barrels fairly well mounted. Using a 5/8th's rod in the 'bore' and a laser, it's amazing how much a couple thousands movement changes the line!

Edited by TennHillBilly (12/06/14 05:07 AM)

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Shotgunlover
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#248926 - 13/06/14 06:37 PM

Drill drift is a perennial problem. In my experience the only system that guarantees drilling with no drift is EDM, but then it is hellishly expensive.

Glad to see your project coming along. I am eager to see the monobloc assembled and finished.

--------------------
Shotgunlover

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Shotgunlover]
#248955 - 14/06/14 08:08 AM

The normal procedure for drilling a true hole is to drill first, then bore and then ream. Even small diameter deep holes can be bored quite easily. The finish does not have to be fantastic if the reamer is in good condition as will clean up the hole perfectly. This will produce a hole that is round and true, and if you use an edge finder to locate the centre point, it will also be in the correct position.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#253052 - 02/09/14 01:36 AM

Not a lot of progress to show with respect to actual construction. I've gotten two barrels as a start point, but need to find a gunsmith with a lathe to turn my barrels down. I got two 300 win mag Remington 700 barrels for a start. I chose to go this route for several reasons. Remington barrels are readily available at a reasonable cost. They have no extractor cuts and the profiles are done for you. Of course this will mean cutting the chamber end off and rechambering. I'm not aware though, of any large bores. My plan is rechamber for 30-40 Krag, a rimmed, tapered, cartridge ( the bore size in these is .3085). Kind of wanted a venerable old round with lower pressures. I read somewhere shotgun pressures are in the 10,000 lb. range which I guess is why Brown recommends low to medium intensity rounds for shotgun actions. I considered .303 British(bore sizes are all over), Mauser 8 x 57.(Mauser barrels are plentiful, 303's not so much). In a perfect world, I would have liked to have had 2 Ruger 45-70's but got tired of trying to find any at a reasonable cost. Also, I started with 26" in barrels, rather than the more plentiful 24 or 22. By rechambering, I should still wind up at, or about 24". The top pic shows a 30-30 round in the middle for comparison.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#253086 - 02/09/14 11:08 PM

Quote:

Since I do not have a regular milling machine, I have to resort to a lot of handwork. I'm starting by fitting the 'dollshead' into the action since I believe everything follows. Cutting this block on my band saw has been tedious....this is rather tough stuff. I have a homemade milling machine setup on my little 7 X 10 minilathe. A design from Varmint Al's website. I can take a few thous each pass but slow going. The Doll'shead is now at smoke and sand stage. The black marker line is the final angle to the standing breach.

Good on you ! I just finished making a Sako mount base by hand out of hardened 4140 steel and I will tell you its a lot of work and a tough steel(pics on greatest Mosin thread) I am watching your project with interest and my hat goes off to any skilled craftsman who does it by hand as many of the old time gunsmiths did .Bully !

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
#253133 - 04/09/14 05:41 AM

Thanks for the kind words! I wish I had, or had access to, a larger lathe....that's slowing the project. I've long been of the opinion when the geniouses dreamed up a gun design, there was a good bit of hand work in making the proto. I read somewhere the young German apprentices had to make a perfect steel cube using files, now that's skill! In our era of instant gratification, I find working with a file most gratifying. Bill

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Crusader68
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Reged: 25/11/11
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#253533 - 14/09/14 04:54 AM

As a tag along question, would using an air-hardening tool steel like A-2 be a bad idea for use as a monoblock? Friend of mine has a drop that would suit my size requirements and A-2 certainly has similar properties to 4140 or 8620, so I'm curious if there are any specific reasons why one shouldn't use tool steel for a monoblock?

--------------------
Erik S.
"... mais épargnez le visage"

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Dumprat
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Reged: 20/02/14
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#253543 - 15/09/14 12:13 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the kind words! I wish I had, or had access to, a larger lathe....that's slowing the project. I've long been of the opinion when the geniouses dreamed up a gun design, there was a good bit of hand work in making the proto. I read somewhere the young German apprentices had to make a perfect steel cube using files, now that's skill! In our era of instant gratification, I find working with a file most gratifying. Bill

We had to do that in millwright/machinist school. Steel cube and a square ring that the block would push through but not fall through. With a file.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: Crusader68]
#253625 - 17/09/14 02:56 AM

I am no metals engineer but I can't see a problem with a monoblock, given that you would be essentially surrounding the barrel with good grade steel. Secondly, the question would be what cartridge are you planning on? Assuming you stay with a low or medium intensity round as recommended by Brown. I think part of the selection goes to the machining aspect....and/or your ability to work the stuff. 4140, while tough, is not that bad to file. A shoe lump construction, might be another matter. Maybe some experienced folks will jump in here, kind of goes to my first post.

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aromakr
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#253701 - 19/09/14 01:44 AM

Bill:
Your efforts with files and sweat have inspired me to do a build myself. I have a inexpensive .410 that I have decided needs a set of 25/20 WCF barrels. I do have a little more equipment than you, but your efforts with files has me convinced I can do it also, thanks.
Bob

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: aromakr]
#253820 - 21/09/14 09:40 AM

Thanks for the kind words! If you watch, you can pick up a block of 4140 on eBay pretty reasonable. If that's the route you choose. Or, are you planning on using the shotgun bbl.'s? Should be a nice project. I'm sure pics will follow?
After much wringing of hands, and gnashing of teeth, I decided the easy solution to my short bed lathe was simply to buy a steady rest and chuck the threads, turn the barrel where I want to and then cut that part (old threads) off. Worst case, I'll have to get my local machine shop to face it off before I start cutting the chamber. Or, I'll short chamber it then get it faced off before final work.

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aromakr
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#253909 - 23/09/14 12:17 AM

Bill:
I am going to build a new monoblock and keep the shotgun barrels intact.
I've been looking on ebay, however everything I've seen has been annealed, the one that is heat treated is way over size, I might have to go that route.
Bob

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Dumprat
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: aromakr]
#253913 - 23/09/14 02:46 AM

Most local metal suppliers will sell short pieces of heat treated 4140. We use metal supermarket here.

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transvaal
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: aromakr]
#253998 - 25/09/14 12:12 AM

Quote:

Bill:
I am going to build a new monoblock and keep the shotgun barrels intact.
I've been looking on ebay, however everything I've seen has been annealed, the one that is heat treated is way over size, I might have to go that route.
Bob

Aromaker;

I will offer you some of my experience as in your profile you say that you would welcome help.

Use annealed steel for your building of the monobloc. Alloy steel such as you mentioned in general do not need to be heat treated for use as a monobloc, and doing so makes the machining very difficult--according to how the steel is heat treated. You can see photo of a 20-bore rifle I built (Bore and Paradox forums on this site) using 4140 monobloc. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=225579&an=0&page=1#Post225579.

Transvaal

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aromakr
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: transvaal]
#254066 - 25/09/14 11:49 PM

Transvaal:
Thanks, I discovered that by re-reading the mono-block section of Ellis's book.
Bob

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: aromakr]
#256808 - 16/11/14 03:58 AM

Trying to get back into this project. Weather, and little heat in my shop, not helping. This is a pic of my mini lathe set up with barrel 1. I have two 26", .300 win mag, 700 bbls. What I will do is start turning down the bbls to about the monoblock diameter, yet to be determined. I will cut the bbls off through the neck, about 2" +/-, Right now the monoblock is bored to 5/8" I will probably be going to about 3/4". The object is to leave as much barrel 'meat' as I can. With a small lathe, I have to chuck the barrel's threads and use a steady rest. No matter, that whole part will be cut off. Ultimately, then ream the remainder for 30-40 Krag. It's now 'dialed' in at about .003.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#264249 - 27/04/15 05:09 AM

Time to get back to work after a long Winter! First barrel cut and beginning to turn down. I cut through the cartridge neck about half of its length. I plan to drill the monoblock out to 3/4" and turn the barrel down accordingly. I had a cheap set of drills and quickly dulled the next drill up from the 5/8th's I started with. Due to its limited capacity of my 7 x 10 lathe, I used the 3 jaw with the chamber threads to start with, and now have my 4 jaw chuck installed for final facing, fine turning and will 'short chamber' leaving .005+ for final reaming.......at least that's the plan for today! This should leave a final barrel length of 23 1/2".

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#264695 - 08/05/15 09:59 AM

Well, there's good news and bad here. I've turned the barrels down to 13/16's and started to drill the monoblock out to the same dimension. But, my drill press has stalled. I had no problem going 5/8's and then 11/16's with HSS bits but no luck with a 13/16's cobalt. I guess I missed 'Drilling 101'! The suggestions seem to be drill your pilot the size of the bit's web and then go with the final....unless you are going to ream. Still I guess you can't exceed the horsepower of your drill press.....mine just stalls.
Lesson 2: Plan your build! I bought the AyA 12 ga. because it had the features I wanted, AND the price was right! Plus I wanted a large bore. After, I found a set of barrels in .45 would cost more than some used doubles. So, went to .30 cal. Problem is 30 bbls on 12 ga action are not going to be as pretty. The rib is going to be quite wide. It was suggested a 20 ga would have been better! It's still fun, though.
I'll have to take my block to my local machine shop and let them bore, drill....whatever, to 'hog through.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#264890 - 13/05/15 08:21 AM

After visiting 3 shops, it became apparent no one wants to just drill out a hole! So I must resort to the next best thing: do it myself. The holes, remember, are going through perpendicular to the angle we started with to fit the action, or about 89 degrees.

So, I had to chuck the monoblock in my 4 jaw at a skewed angle. makes it fairly hard with my small lathe. not much to 'grab' onto. I'm boring it out on the tight side and have ordered an expansion reamer to finish off the holes.

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TennHillBilly
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Re: Suitable steels for monoblock? [Re: TennHillBilly]
#264983 - 15/05/15 06:45 AM

This is the best solution I could come up with to try and ensure my boring is running true. The dollshead keeps me from boring from the muzzle end, due to the depth limits of chuck's jaws. My longest boring bar has dulled so I'm stopped 'til I get a longer, stouter bar...the deeper one goes, the 'springyer' the bar becomes.

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