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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns

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Cazadero
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Reged: 17/10/11
Posts: 561
Loc: Texas
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: kuduae]
      #252614 - 25/08/14 11:34 AM

Very nice to have such an astounding family heirloom...

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: kuduae]
      #252668 - 26/08/14 12:50 AM

Quote:

For a start:
Here is my family heirloom, an early Immanuel Meffert, Suhl, “Hubertus” patent safety gun. According to family traditions it was an 1893 Christmas present to my grandfather’s grandfather, the bearded man on the right of the photo.

The 1893 date is confirmed by the German crown/V Vorratszeichen on the action, stamped only that year. The original Damascus barrels were smashed by an American soldier in 1945, the stock broken off. The stock was glued together later. Luckily my grandfather had made two new, Nitro proofed barrel sets by Ernst Krausser, Zella-Mehlis, immediately before WW2. These new barrels escaped destruction. The shotgun barrels are in 16 – 70 = 16/ 2 ¾”.

The gun may as well appear on the “Combination Guns” forum, as the second set of barrels is in 6.5x52R = .25-35 Win and 16/70. Fitted with claw mounts and an older 4x Gerard scope.

As you see, my son and daughter are the 6t generation now using this gun for hunting sometimes.




Very interesting. Thanks for posting, also the family history and connections.

Now you have done that, I will need to add some old black and white photos to the shotguns I was going to post. The photos are good, the shotgun a little crappy and rusted, for the old family guns, but that is way it goes.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1756
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #252690 - 26/08/14 04:57 AM

Here is another one,a somewhat lengthy story. Many may consider it a piece of junk. I rather think about it as sort of a joke. It may be a witness of some European history. At least it is a story to tell. My story may sound like a lie, but it is nothing but the truth.
It was in 1991, shortly after the breakdown of communist rule in eastern Europe, when I visited the local Waffen Frankonia shop to buy some ammo. I was standing in the spacious shop waiting for attention of a salesman, as usual. Frankonia then had on offer at DM 168.- each, about $ 110.- then, a whole rack of worn out shotguns in terrible shape, converted for legal reasons to 9mm blank firing only. As I learned later they had imported a whole truckload of former Kolchos guns from Romania. Most of the guns were utility grade, post war Suhl boxlocks and cheap Brno sidelocks. Two men were standing at that rack, musing about that heap of junk, about five paces away. One of them said to the other “Do you expect to find a Purdey here?” while he put a sidelock back into the rack. Seeing this, my first thought was “hey, that isn’t a Brno”. I walked over and pulled that gun from the rack. At first glance: A really sorry affair. Rust pitted, restocked by some village carpenter, wood “finished” with a rasp and some floor varnish. Obviously once stolen, as all outside markings were removed with a prick punch and ground off. Everithing covered in dirt and gunk. Second glance: That carpenter had used a quite decent piece of walnut for restocking. Traces of fine rose and scroll engraving under the gunk. London View Mark on watertable. Beesley’s self opening action. So I bought it immediately, just for fun, as it was nothing else than a Purdey! Those two blokes obviously had no idea what a Purdey sidelock looks like. On taking it apart I found the serial number 12724 inside the action and small “1”s on each part, showing it was once number one of a pair.




What to do now with that unshootable relic? I then owned another shotgun from the opposite end of the market, price wise: A Brazilian Rossi 12 bore hammer coachgun with 20” barrels and a broken lock, all legal information as to maker and serial number on the barrels. This short barreled gun had seved my brush hunting purposes well until the right tumbler broke. These barrels had the same breech end dimensions as the Purdey, the underlumps and blind (without crossbolt) top extension oversize in all dimensions. Many hours of careful filing fitted these barrels to the Purdey action.

Later I sleeved the original barrels too, but I use it most often with the short Brazilian barrels.
Some years later, when in London, of course I visited Purdey’s . The young salesman there was so kind to look the serial number up in their ledger books. The gun was built in 1887 as No.1 of a pair and sold in London. Description: 12 bore top lever hammerless non-ejector with hidden third grip, 30” barrels, nearly plain and modified (= choked like my 20" barrels), stock length 14.3/8”, weight 6lbs12ozs. He even was so kind to give me a name meaningless to him: Karolyi
A search in an old encyclobedia (pre-google times) revealed: The Hungarian Magnate Count Alajos Karolyi of Nagykaroly, 1825-1889, was Austro-Hungarian ambassador in London from 1878 to 1888. He was certainly the original owner of the gun. Here he is, from a painting of the 1878 Congress of Berlin.


The Karolyi’s of Nagykaroly were one of the oldest Hungarian noble families, going back to about 800 when the Magyars invaded the country that was to become Hungary. To describe Alajos Karolyi as a big landowner is a gross understatement. His estates stretched from now Slovakia to now Romania. I have a book by his son, Louis Karolyi, about his hunting life in the Danubian Region stacked away somewhere. Simply unbelievable! If I find it, I will add some details.

Edited by kuduae (26/08/14 09:49 PM)


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: kuduae]
      #252692 - 26/08/14 06:23 AM

Great Story. You were quite lucky.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #252702 - 26/08/14 09:46 AM

Congratulations on a great pickup, Axel. Love this stuff!!

To the serious shooter/collector, provenance outweighs condition ten-to-one!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5500
Loc: United States
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: Marrakai]
      #252706 - 26/08/14 11:50 AM

kuduae;

Ausgezeichnet!!

Thanks for sharing the pix and story. Really a marvelous find!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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9.3x57
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: kuduae]
      #252707 - 26/08/14 11:54 AM

Quote:

For a start:
Here is my family heirloom, an early Immanuel Meffert, Suhl, “Hubertus” patent safety gun. According to family traditions it was an 1893 Christmas present to my grandfather’s grandfather, the bearded man on the right of the photo.

The 1893 date is confirmed by the German crown/V Vorratszeichen on the action, stamped only that year. The original Damascus barrels were smashed by an American soldier in 1945, the stock broken off. The stock was glued together later. Luckily my grandfather had made two new, Nitro proofed barrel sets by Ernst Krausser, Zella-Mehlis, immediately before WW2. These new barrels escaped destruction. The shotgun barrels are in 16 – 70 = 16/ 2 ¾”.

The gun may as well appear on the “Combination Guns” forum, as the second set of barrels is in 6.5x52R = .25-35 Win and 16/70. Fitted with claw mounts and an older 4x Gerard scope.

As you see, my son and daughter are the 6t generation now using this gun for hunting sometimes.




kuduae;

In those days what was the 6.5x52R mostly used for?

Roe deer? Fox? Birds?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: 9.3x57]
      #252742 - 26/08/14 09:23 PM

Quote:

In those days what was the 6.5x52R mostly used for?

Roe deer? Fox? Birds?




When the "new" barrels were made, the 6.5x52R aka .25-35 Win was regarded as an ideal roe deer, fox and other varmints + small game cartridge. It's use on larger game like boar,red, fallow deer was illegal since 1934, as it did not meet the then minimum criteria: Either 200 meterkilogramm energy at 100m or 10 gramm bullet weight(to keep the prooven 6.5x54 M-Sch legal), though it met the 6.5mm diameter minimum for larger species than roe deer.
Today German legal Minimum specifications:
Roe deer: energy 1000 Joule at 100m (so the .222 Rem is the smallest legal roe deer cartridge)
All other hoofed game: bullet min. 6.5mm and energy 2000 Joule at 100m.


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: kuduae]
      #252746 - 26/08/14 11:21 PM

Thanks.

Very interesting.

In truth, the .25-35 IS a good caliber for those smaller species though eclipsed by other more modern rounds.

Very interesting thread.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: 9.3x57]
      #252751 - 27/08/14 02:19 AM

Yes- 117gr. RN at about 2,350fps, IIRC.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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steve20
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Reged: 20/11/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: Igorrock]
      #252867 - 29/08/14 02:28 AM



This is the only picture that I have of any of my shotguns, but it's the gun I always use, and have done so for the last 25 years.




It is a Langley & Lewis, dating from around 1910. 20 bore, boxlock ejector. 30" barrels.

The picture was taken a couple of years ago at Glendye, on a driven grouse day.


Steve.


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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: steve20]
      #252880 - 29/08/14 06:51 AM

Looks very nice.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #252882 - 29/08/14 08:14 AM

Interesting guards on the barrels - they must get hot, at time.
Can't imagine what it would have been like with black powder loads. Just shooting a few thrown clays, heats up the tubes immensely in a splinter-forend SxS.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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steve20
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Reged: 20/11/11
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Loc: Scotland,UK
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: DarylS]
      #252906 - 29/08/14 08:43 PM

Quote:

Interesting guards on the barrels - they must get hot, at time.
Can't imagine what it would have been like with black powder loads. Just shooting a few thrown clays, heats up the tubes immensely in a splinter-forend SxS.




I shoot with a straight left arm,meaning that my left hand is not on the forend, so the guard is useful when the shooting is "hot". I also wear a glove on my left hand.


Just found this picture of the same gun.






Steve.

Edited by steve20 (29/08/14 09:38 PM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: steve20]
      #252916 - 30/08/14 01:19 AM

Thanks Steve.
Yes - caught that - the first picture with the guard just in front of the forend, shows where I hold the tubes of a splinter forend SxS, elbow slightly bent. Nice to be able to move the guard around to try holds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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englishupland
.224 member


Reged: 21/12/07
Posts: 37
Loc: MI
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: kuduae]
      #252980 - 31/08/14 10:45 AM

Kuduae,

You just made my day, I absolutely love stories like these!


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englishupland
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Reged: 21/12/07
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Loc: MI
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: DarylS]
      #252982 - 31/08/14 10:49 AM

Kuduae,

Thanks for that writeup and photos
I absolutely love stories like that!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: englishupland]
      #252983 - 31/08/14 10:51 AM

Quote:

Kuduae,

You just made my day, I absolutely love stories like these!




I agree. Kuduae's two stories and posts added to the thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #253034 - 01/09/14 12:49 PM

Great thread!

My go to shotgun, French artisan/guild gun, 1950s by Seytre. Belgian action, finished by Seytre in St. Etienee, and sold in a dodgy Parsian gunshop "Lacroix".



I've taken her around the world:
Woodcock and driven partridges in France:


My other go to, my 1970s GDR Merkel drilling in 16/16/7x65r
She's also traveled a great deal:

European woodcock:


Blacktailed spike buck and a grouse in Alaska:




to Axis deer in Hawaii:



Edited by Chasseur (02/09/14 04:58 PM)


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MattieA
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Reged: 06/04/07
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Loc: Colorado, USA
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #253512 - 13/09/14 08:25 AM

Fox C Grade,



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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: MattieA]
      #253764 - 20/09/14 11:00 AM

OK, apologies for boring everyone to death after such a diverse selection of scatterguns and truly amazing provenance so far:

...but here are a couple of pics of my bog-standard Rigby sidelock.







It has all the quintessential Rigby features, including the Rigby-Bissel rising third bite (Patent No. 1141 of 1879), and Rigby's favored lever forend latch. A true “best quality” gun (No.2 of a pair) with absolutely gorgeous wood, and the leather-covered pad is nice too.



This particular gun was originally made in 1887 and the patent use number for the rising bite is 369. The rib address is "John Rigby & Co, St James's Street, London, & Dublin".

The gun was nitro-reproved early last century, and sleeved with brand new barrels early this century! The sleeved barrels, non-ejector, and absence of a case, meant that thankfully bidding was not fierce and it was affordable to my meagre purse.

We Aussies are intrigued by the fact that sleeving reduces the value enormously at auction in the UK, whereas in reality the bidder can often win a gun for less than the probable cost of the sleeving job, and is then presented with minty bores, 'new' barrel wall thickness, and a veritable lifetime of shooting all over again! And all this on a marvelous old gun from the heyday of British gunmaking! All is well with the world.

Although I have owned it for a couple of years now, this Rigby will be making its debut on Magpie Geese at my local swamp with bismuth twos in a few days.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Iowa_303s
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Reged: 22/03/13
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Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: Marrakai]
      #253769 - 20/09/14 12:30 PM

Marrakai,
Thanks for boring us with such a utilitairian piece!
It truly is very nice. Good luck in your upcoming hunt.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #253779 - 20/09/14 06:25 PM

What an incredible "bore" Marrakai is!

He he.

Very nice gun.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #253852 - 21/09/14 09:47 PM

Nice guns Mattie and Chasseur.

***

I learned to shoot a shotgun, self taught, with my Dad's .410 side by side shotgun. I purchased some shells for it last week, god they are tiny little things. I haven't shot this gun for many many years.

I think I had it repaired eight years ago by Kevin Sharp in Victoria, and haven't used it even years before then. It needed the extractor replaced, and a trigger fixed. One hammer also no longer cocked. He fixed all of these plus gave it a coat of oil on the stock. I know I had sanded back the stock when a kid, but not the checkering to remove old stains but never rubbed any wood oil back in to it. Kevin must have done this. I asked him to generally clean it up. It wasn't worth a lot of work, but as the shotgun was my Grandfather's I wanted it restored to a reasonable level.

Now I wanted to post some photos tonight, but alas the light was gone before I could take any. Planned a massacre on the pest rabbits in my vineyard and hay crop. and to photograph the gun with the harvest.

The plan
Now the creek level has dropped I can cross it without getting soaked, and sneak up to the river bank. Most of the rabbit holes are on the North side of the bank so in theory I could sneak up to it, crest the bank and wreak havoc on the bunnies in multitudes on the other side.

Loaded the gun. The 3" shells are a bit tight ... mmmm ... maybe should have bought the 2 1/2" ones ???? Oh well probably shot 3" ones as a kid so will again. The gun closed on them OK and they could be extracted by finger OK. The extractor only levers them out two or three millimetres.

Dogbert (Blitzen) faithfully followed in excitement. He senses when I am hunting and usually is much more obedient. Probably because I cuff him around the head much quicker if hunting if he misbehaves. He also of course loves hunting so is very attentive.

Cross the creek. Three wood ducks are floating in the shallow water. One is an adult, the other two younger. One flaps away in the water but can not fly. The adult stays in the water, even though I cross only five metres away! Bloody hell, in season it would fly if it saw me two hundred metres away. Blitzen ignores them, he is watching me. This time I like this, as I don't want him self hunting down the ducks and killing the ducklings. My previous GSP Siegfried did this a lot. A fox will probably do it anyway, especially once the water dries up. Though Blitz SHOULD have shown interest in the ducks, he has never been a great duck dog.

Approaching the bank, one small rabbit was sitting guard and popped down the hole. Didn't shoot him as hoped to get several in a second or two.

Crested the bank and ....... several tiny bunnies scattered, no bigger ones, damn. There is a big one much further away, but down a hole he goes, then decided to shoot one tiny baby bunny in a log pile about to pop down. Murderer! Blitzen will enjoy him. All the rest are gone. Checked down the rows, no bunnies. Obviously they had not yet scattered away from the holes on the headlands yet. Too early, but the light will go in thirty minutes.

Checked the hay crop, no bunnies hiding in there.

Checked the next vineyard. A rabbit or two made the wild dash across the headland into their holes. Blitzen decided to sit and wait for me. He thinks he needs to sit and even if I slap my side ie for him to come up and heel, he sits steady. No verbal commands when hunting like this, so let the good boy sit. He thinks he is doing the right thing. No more rabbits, so go back to Blitz and tap him releasing him. Crazy time, he runs madly around, thinking he has been released, which he has been.

Back to the original vineyard and check the other side of it, one larger rabbit sits by a burrow. Try a long shot at him with the left barrel but no luck. He is down in his hole.

BTW I shoot the rabbits as pests, to reduce their numbers, but also for sport, for human consumption or Blitzen meat.

Retrieved the tiny baby bunny which Blitz thought was very exciting and a mouthful for him for dinner.

Two ducks take flight from the creek below me. A ha the wood ducks have finally taken fright, but no, two black ducks circle past me.

Maybe some photos tomorrow.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1652
Loc: Australia
Re: Show us your shotguns [Re: NitroX]
      #255756 - 26/10/14 11:32 PM

Post some pics, John!

--------------------
.


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