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NitroXAdministrator
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Some recoil stats for discussion
      #252675 - 26/08/14 03:08 AM

Some recoil stats for discussion.

Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

A common load for a .375 H&H Magnum
.375 - 300/2600/60/8.5 - Recoil Energy of 41 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

I once shot a mate's Blaser rifle in .375 which was 6 1/4 lbs including scope and full magazine. It was not pleasant to shoot.
.375 - 300/2600/60/6.25 - Recoil Energy of 56 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 24 fps.

A .30-06 load.
.30 - 200/2500/40/8.5 - Recoil Energy of 17 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 11 fps.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252677 - 26/08/14 03:11 AM

Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

.458 Lott
.458 Lott - 500/2400/85/10.5 - Recoil Energy of 73 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 21 fps.

.470 NE - 500/2150/85/10.5 - Recoil Energy of 59 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.

Sometimes someone on the internet posts some BS about their favourite lightweight .458 Lott. .500 Kaboomer or something else. usually bragging they can shoot it all day at targets without a problem. Here is such a lightweight .458 Lott
.458 Lott - 500/2400/85/8.5 - Recoil Energy of 90 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 26 fps.

--------------------
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Edited by NitroX (26/08/14 03:20 AM)

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252678 - 26/08/14 03:16 AM

Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

The .500/416 is a much discussed cartridge on some forums.
.500/416 - 410/2400/85/10.5 - Recoil Energy of 54 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

Compared to a slower older .450/400
.450/400 - 410/2050/65/10.5 - Recoil Energy of 35 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 15 fps.

A .450/400 in a lighter rifle. Still manageable.
.450/400 - 400/2050/65/9.5 - Recoil Energy of 37 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.

***

Compare the .500/416 to a .470 NE
.500/416 - 410/2400/85/10.5 - Recoil Energy of 54 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 18 fps.

.470 NE - 500/2150/85/10.5 - Recoil Energy of 59 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.

Not a great deal of difference fr recoil but less effective on the very large stuff. A .500/416 if it could be shot as a longer range rifle might have an advantage as a dual rifle.

***

.500 NE
.500 NE - 570/2100/100/12 - Recoil Energy of 65 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.

--------------------
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Edited by NitroX (26/08/14 02:42 PM)

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252679 - 26/08/14 03:18 AM

I will add some more. Note the powder charges are guesstimates. The rifle weight has been chosen as what is often common or desired. Obviously a heavier rifle will dampen recoil as in the .500 NE listed above when compared to a .470. Velocity again is an expected velocity. Of course some variable change with individual loads and rifles.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252693 - 26/08/14 07:22 AM

Thanks John.

That lightweight Lott would sting!

The 500 weight listed seems heavy. Mine's 10lb 10oz. Feels pretty much like my 458Win Mag in recoil, 105gns at a
just over 2000fps with 570gn Woodleigh.

Of course gun fit would make the world of difference.

Cheers, Chris

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9.3x57
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Rockdoc]
      #252696 - 26/08/14 08:28 AM

Thanks John.

I've always been curious about the .450/400. Seems like that one gets billed as a fairly mild-kicking rifle and it seems as you note here it appears to be. Also seems like many who own them like shooting them.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: 9.3x57]
      #252719 - 26/08/14 02:57 PM

The .450/400 I listed as doing 2050 fps which is common. I would need to look up some published velocities but if it was increased to 2150 fps there would be an increase in recoil of course. If it is compared to the .375 in the first post, it is milder. Interesting to see how velocity affects recoil. I will play around with those numbers some more.

The old .404 used to shoot a 400 gr projectile at around 2150 fps as well, so those sorts of ballistics are effective on game. With modern loadings the velocity might be more like 2300 to 2400 fps. With greater recoil.


Rockdoc,

I actually think a lot of rifles are heavier than listed. The catalogues often show a weight with the real rifles actually being heavier.

The "light" .458 Lott I included as I recently read such a comment elsewhere "I prefer mine to be 8 1/2 lbs total weight, I have no problem with the recoil and can shoot it all day ... " or some such tripe. Sometimes there is a lot of this sort of BS on the net. If such a rifle exists, it is a mistake IMO.

Will have to do the numbers also for the .577, .600 and .700, plus the .460 Wby. The .460 Wby Mag is a favourite until guys actually buy one, and then try to shoot it, so easier to get cheaper ones second hand.

I find recoil is a progressive thing. My experience anyway. To go from a .222 to a .450 NE would not be a good idea, but my progression was .222 to .30-06, to .375 H&H to .450 NE and then larger. With each step the previous one started to feel "softer" compared to the newer bigger one.

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Rockdoc
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252720 - 26/08/14 03:43 PM

Thanks John

My 500 is 10lb 10oz measured, plus factory ledger agrees. My 500/450 a few ounces lighter.

As far as the 450/400, my No1 was a bit of a pig until I put a Limbsaver on it. Purely stock design especially when using a scope! Is better without. If a rifle is stocked for open sights I find they slap me a bit when using scopes. My face is much higher on the stock.

I have an original early 375H&H belted Magnum that is something like 8lb 2oz, but is a joy to shoot. Stocked for the express sights of course.

Some interesting figures there. I would hazard that the recoil velocity and stock design are big factors.

Great topic.

Cheers, Chris

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Rockdoc]
      #252724 - 26/08/14 06:04 PM

Nitro, I think I mentioned the story to you before about a chap who turned up at the Holland rifle range with a brand new custom sythetic stocked .458 Lott to sight in off the bench. He asked range master Roland to try it first (Roland is an ex African hand). Roland declined. Our intrepid hero touched off the first round and found he had a profusely bleeding nose. He fired one more round and left ! best, Mike

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #252727 - 26/08/14 07:05 PM

I don't think the powder charge weight really matters, its the velocity that counts.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #252729 - 26/08/14 07:16 PM

Quote:

I don't think the powder charge weight really matters, its the velocity that counts.



Lets see.

Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

A original cartridge loading.
.404 - 400/2150/85/9 - Recoil Energy of 49 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.

Assuming a modern powder with the same powder weight gives a higher velocity.
.404 - 400/2400/85/9 - Recoil Energy of 61 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 21 fps.

Increasing the powder charge increases the recoil energy considerably.
.404 - 400/2400/105/9 - Recoil Energy of 69 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 22 fps.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252730 - 26/08/14 07:20 PM

My Jeffery double rifle in .450 No,2 NE is very heavy. As a result its recoil is relatively mild for the type of round.

Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

.450 No.2 NE - 480/2170/105/13.25 - Recoil Energy of 50 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 16 fps.

The same in a 10.5 lb rifle:
Recoil Energy of 63 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 20 fps.

--------------------
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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252731 - 26/08/14 07:23 PM

Changing the powder or charge changes the velocity. That's the action that the rifle is reacting to, if you want to be all Newtonian.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Rockdoc]
      #252732 - 26/08/14 07:24 PM

Quote:

The 500 weight listed seems heavy. Mine's 10lb 10oz. Feels pretty much like my 458Win Mag in recoil, 105gns at a
just over 2000fps with 570gn Woodleigh.



Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

570/2000/105/10.63 - Recoil Energy of 68 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 20 fps.

Quote:

Of course gun fit would make the world of difference.



True, felt recoil and how the rifle moves back would be determined a lot by the design of the rifle and stock design.

--------------------
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #252733 - 26/08/14 07:26 PM

Quote:

Changing the powder or charge changes the velocity. That's the action that the rifle is reacting to, if you want to be all Newtonian.



Its part of the formula. The powder charge or gases are moving forwards therefore there must be a corresponding rearward reaction. As for the physics, don't ask me.

--------------------
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252734 - 26/08/14 07:35 PM

Momentum long from: Gun velocity = (bullet mass x bullet velocity) + (powder charge mass x powder charge velocity) / Gun mass x 7000. Then, plug the now known Gun velocity into the translational kinetic energy formula: Recoil energy = Gun mass x Gun velocity2 / 2 x dimensional constant.

Example:
Firearm: Mauser 98 chambered in 7 x 57 mm Mauser weighing 10 pounds.

Projectile: spitzer type bullet weighing 140 grains with a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second.

Powder charge: single base nitrocellulose weighing 42.5 grains with a powder charge velocity of 5200 feet per second.

8.557 ft/s = (140 x 2700) + (42.5 x 5200) / 10 x 7000.

Then, plug the now known Gun velocity of 8.557 feet per second into the translational kinetic energy formula:

11.38 ft-lbf = 10 x 8.5572/ 2 x 32.163.

Momentum short form: Recoil energy = {[ (bullet mass x bullet velocity) + (powder charge mass x powder charge velocity) / 7000]2} / Gun mass x 2 x dimensional constant.

Example, same as above:

11.38 ft-lbf = {[ (140 x 2700) + (42.5 x 5200) / 7000]2} / 10 x 2 x 32.163.


Powder Charge Velocities

Typically the charge velocity are:
Black powder: 685.8 m/s (2250 ft/s)
Pistol and Shotgun powder: 1707 m/s (5600 ft/s)
Rifle powder: 1585 m/s (5200 ft/s)
BMG powder: 1433 m/s (4700 ft/s)

However these charge velocities are approximations.

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/Recoil_energy

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252735 - 26/08/14 07:38 PM

Quote:

Powder Charge Velocities

Typically the charge velocity are:
Black powder: 685.8 m/s (2250 ft/s)
Rifle powder: 1585 m/s (5200 ft/s)




This answers my own question elsewhere that the formula DOES need to be modified if black powder is being used as in Curl's 8-bore load.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #252736 - 26/08/14 07:40 PM

Quote:

Changing the powder or charge changes the velocity. That's the action that the rifle is reacting to, if you want to be all Newtonian.



The mass of the powder also contributes to the recoil. Even though it is converted to a gas, the gas still has the same mass as the powder it started out as. And there can also be an extra "rocket effect" where the gas will accelerate past the project as it breaks out from the bore.

Muzzle breaks divert the gas "mass" to reduce the recoil (change the direction).

If you have two loads with different powders but that give the same velocity for a given projectile, the one with the heavier charge will give more recoil (unless there is a big difference between the loads, the difference in recoil will likely not be all that noticeable).

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252737 - 26/08/14 07:43 PM

7 x 57 mm Mauser weighing 10 pounds. Projectile weighing 140 grains with a muzzle velocity of 2700 feet per second.
Powder charge weighing 42.5 grains with a powder charge velocity of 5200 feet per second.

The online calculator I have been cheating with gives approximately the same result:
Recoil Energy of 11 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 8 fps.

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252745 - 26/08/14 09:58 PM

Interesting info gentlemen. I had a 375 Sauer that was right at 7 lbs and I could it shoot it well at all. My 450-400 is a pleasure at 9.75 lbs.

What about a 7 lbs 9.3x62 at 2250 fps with a 286 gr bullet and 60 gr of powder? I have always found this to be th easiest mid bore to shoot really well.

--------------------
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: NitroX]
      #252757 - 27/08/14 03:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The 500 weight listed seems heavy. Mine's 10lb 10oz. Feels pretty much like my 458Win Mag in recoil, 105gns at a
just over 2000fps with 570gn Woodleigh.



Calibre / Bullet Weight in Grains / Bullet Velocity in fps / Powder Weight in Grains / Gun Weight in Pounds

570/2000/105/10.63 - Recoil Energy of 68 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 20 fps.

Quote:

Of course gun fit would make the world of difference.



True, felt recoil and how the rifle moves back would be determined a lot by the design of the rifle and stock design.



Great Thread..

The above has been my experience as well..just like the universe--it all works together in one degree or another..stock design, powder charge, weight of rifle, bullet, etc...all change the felt recoil..

Have experienced large differences in "felt" recoil shooting same caliber guns in different makes from 300 Win mag to 416 to 470...

Ripp

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #252758 - 27/08/14 03:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Changing the powder or charge changes the velocity. That's the action that the rifle is reacting to, if you want to be all Newtonian.



The mass of the powder also contributes to the recoi




Yes

The powder has mass.
This mass is not lost as it burns and evolves gas.
Mass is a critical component of the recoil formula.

This is why Nitro for Black recipes typically give less recoil per velocity unit.




Cheers
Tinker

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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: tinker]
      #252761 - 27/08/14 04:33 AM

RE lightweight Lott, mine is 8.5 lbs empty, and I shoot ammo loaded at 2150. I can't shoot it all day, that's for sure, but I can shoot it perfectly well and without an ounce of apprehension.

Since I carry my rifle for hours every day, a few months per year, the 8.5 lbs is a decisive advantage over my 450/400 at 10.5 lbs. The 450/400 is significantly more comfortable to shoot, but much less pleasant to carry for any length of time.

If I want to do long sessions at the range, I select a more adequate caliber, like a 7x57 for example. Big bores are not meant to be plinking guns, they are meant to serve a purpose in dangerous game country. If one can shoot his rifle proficiently, AND carry it easily, he's got a good tool.

My "lightweight" Lott is a tool, and a good one. A 12 lbs anything is not a tool, it is a pain in the backside if used for the intended purpose.

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Philip

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Kano
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Kano]
      #252762 - 27/08/14 04:58 AM

RE lightweight Lott, mine is 8.5 lbs empty, and the loads are 2150. I can't shoot it all day, that's sure, but I can shoot it perfectly well and without an ounce of apprehension.

Big bores are not meant to be plinking guns, they are meant to be used against dangerous game. I carry my rifle for hours every day, several months in a year. My 450/400 at 10.5 lbs is more comfortable to shoot than the Lott, but much less pleasant to carry for any length of time.

If you have a rifle that you can shoot perfectly well and carry easily, you got yourself a tool. A 12 lbs anything is not a tool, it is a pain in the backside in dangerous game country.

My "lightweight" Lott is a tool, and a good one.

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Philip

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gwh
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Re: Some recoil stats for discussion [Re: Kano]
      #252771 - 27/08/14 09:29 AM

Very interesting topic. I used to have a 458 Lott on a Ruger RSM. It was a nice rifle and quite heavy with scope and mounts. It recoiled noticeably harder than my 470 NE Merkel. I suspect a fair bit of that is to do with stock design and the recoil velocity. The Lott was doing over 2200 fps with my loads- not hot by any stretch but still a fair bit of thump at both ends. I don't notice it anywhere near as much with the double. Cheers

--------------------
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