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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA
Any Leopard Hunters Out Here?
      #25257 - 27/01/05 11:55 PM

How about some advice to tag Chui? He's on my menu this year.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Spring
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Posts: 104
Loc: Georgia
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25267 - 28/01/05 01:43 AM

If you enjoy reading about such topics, you might want to pick up a copy of the book, Chui!: A Guide to Hunting the African Leopard, by Lou Hallamore. Lou lives and hunts in Zimbabwe and is regarded as one of the top Leopard hunters around. I met Lou's son, George, when hunting in Zim. Both father and son are very good PH's there with leopard hunting being their passion.

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AspenHill
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: Spring]
      #25270 - 28/01/05 02:14 AM

Thanks Vic, that is an excellent idea! I will see about getting that book.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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Spring
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25276 - 28/01/05 02:59 AM

Ann,
I just started looking and noticed how hard that book now is to find! I have a copy of it at my home but it has been loaned to me, so since it's not mine, I had better not yet offer to lend it myself. If you can't find a copy and would really like to read it, let me know and I'll see if I can pass the copy I have along to you.


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Brooks
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Reged: 03/06/03
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Loc: Nebraska
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: Spring]
      #25309 - 28/01/05 01:30 PM

I could not chui: A guide hunting African leopard but, I did find "In the Salt by Lou Hallamore". ABE books has it and it is pretty spendy. Only limited editions available from 110 to a 135 dollars. From the description they gave about the book it might good one to have.


Brooks

--------------------
Brooks


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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: Brooks]
      #25343 - 29/01/05 04:13 AM

Wow, I wonder why these books are so pricey? Thanks for your help guys, I really appreciate it.

I just bought African Hunter II and will look and see what might be in there. I have not cracked it yet.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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vapodog
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Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25347 - 29/01/05 05:26 AM

Capsticks last video was all about Chui and I liked it. It's rather informative and quite entertaining.

Sadly the video shows the last days of PHC as illness took him but that's another campfire story.

--------------------


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25377 - 29/01/05 10:23 AM

Anne

A few basic rules:

Make sure you hit the head before you enter the blind and don't drink anything for a hour before hand.

If you fall asleep easily ( I do ) make sure you don't snore. A Leopard can hear you and it irritates the PH.

Sit still and don't fidget.

NO talking.

Quiet clothes.

Get used to being eaten by bugs and no slapping.

Snakes like blinds.

Warthogs and Impala are favorites of Leapards.

Stay upwind of the bait as it stinks like, well you know.

The Heart and Lungs of a Cat are located behind the front leg and shoulder. Pick a rossette as your target. Squeeze the trigger.

After you shoot a Leopard remember they can be covered with Ticks so be careful handling it. They will all be looking for a new home.

Good Luck






--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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mikeh416Rigby
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Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25378 - 29/01/05 10:32 AM

After this year's hunt in Namibia for plains game, my wish list will be whittled down to the following: Leopard, Sable, Cape Buffalo, and Red Lechwe. I've not hunted any of the animals mentioned, but, I've got to do it sooner or later. I only wish it could be sooner.

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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #25388 - 29/01/05 03:51 PM

Ann,

The best advice I could suggest for a successful Leopard hunt is:

A/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA

B/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA

C/ Only book with a very reputable company and an experienced PH

and last but not least,

D/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA



--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (29/01/05 03:56 PM)


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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25404 - 30/01/05 12:21 AM

Ann,

I assume you have decided where to go already. There is no big secret to leopard hunting. Go where there are lots of leopards, and it is an easy hunt. Where they are harrassed constantly, you'll never get one.

What Mickey1 said, except...

I have never understood this "pick out a rosette" stuff. Leopards are like any other critter. Shoot them half way up, right behind the front leg with a good bullet like the Nosler Partition or Swift and they die instantly. If they don't, you screwed up.

On a personal note, I have shot my one and only leopard. They are too cute to shoot another. I would much rather see them playing with a bait than whack them.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: Will]
      #25410 - 30/01/05 05:41 AM

My favorite post of the year 2005 so far:

In reply to:



Ann,

The best advice I could suggest for a successful Leopard hunt is:

A/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA

B/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA

C/ Only book with a very reputable company and an experienced PH

and last but not least,

D/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA




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SBT
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Reged: 03/01/03
Posts: 44
Loc: Jackson Hole, Wyoming
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25431 - 30/01/05 12:59 PM

Ann,
Buy the video "He's in the Tree". Andrew Dawson of Chifuti Safaris walks you through the whole process. He is the one who also made "Bodington on Buffalo". It is a really good video. It can be found at: http://www.chifutisafaris.com/products.htm


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25443 - 30/01/05 10:13 PM

In reply to:

Poster: shakari
Subject: Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here?

Ann,

The best advice I could suggest for a successful Leopard hunt is:

A/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA

B/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA

C/ Only book with a very reputable company and an experienced PH

and last but not least,

D/ Don't book a Leopard hunt in RSA






Steve

Please elaborate. PM me or on the open board. As you prefer.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: NitroX]
      #25453 - 31/01/05 12:33 AM

John,

I wasn't sure about posting this, and I hope I don't offend anyone........If I do, I apologise in advance.

First of all I should say that I'm not suggesting that everyone in the SA hunting industry is a crook, I'm just saying that the SA Leopard hunting and licencing system is open to a lot of liberty taking......and many people (but not all) abuse the set up.

It's a complicated system that can be open to all sorts of abuse, but the first problem with SA leopards is that they have been seriously persecuted from the time the first white settler appeared on the scene. (I guess about 200 years ago) Pretty much everyone saw Mr Spots as nothing but a stock killer and consequently began poisoning trapping and shooting them at every single opportunity and they still haven't stopped........Mr Spots is (at least IMO) the cleverest animal in Africa and this has meant that they quickly learnt every trick in the book.....That's a lot of years of learning!

So even on a completely fair Leopard hunt (and believe me thev majority in SA are not) the South African Leopard is probably the most educated in Africa.

Add on the fact that Leopard licences are kept in very short supply in SA and further can be repeatedly re-cycled to other clients if the preceding Leopard hunt is unsuccessful there is a huge scope for abusing the system.

Often the abuse is not on the side of the PH, it's often on the side of the landowner who makes more money if he can sell the same licence more that once or even sometimes on the side of the native hunting staff who will get additional work and additional tips if they get more than one client on the same Leopard hunt over the year......but not all PH's are honest and many clients wouldn't even latch onto many of the dodgy dealings.

Here's just a few of the regular cons:-

The outfitter shoots a Leopard before the start of the season and freezes it.....then a few days into each hunt he sends someone to the bait tree with the frozen pussy and a jar of blood......When the client arrives he sees the cat on the bait and is encouraged to shoot it quick!.....at the shot, the cat (which has a long piece of fishing line attached to it) gets pulled off the tree and the blood chucked about the place......the the Leopard gets picked up, carried away and returned to the freezer for the next time. The client is told he's wounded the cat and after a little walking & tracking told he's lost it......but of course, he still has to pay the trophy fee......then the landowner just claims an unsuccessful hunt and sells the licence again..... one of these was discovered last year when two hunters found themselves in adjacent seats flying home to the USA!.

Another one is once the baits have been hung, someone sneaks up to the bait tree when no-one is around and takes a leak somewhere nearby so that no self respecting Leopard will go near the place.

Then there's the ones that sell the Leopard hunt without having the Leopard licence at all......they certainly can't afford for the client to shoot a Leopard as they'll never get the export licence and also face prosecution for hunting a Leopard without a licence. An example of that trick appeared on the forums just last year....the client wasn't even aware he had been screwed.

.....and then there's the various tricks of using silent dog whistles to either scare the cat off or attract it without the client knowing about it........neither of which are exactly fair chase hunting.

Examples like this take place every single year in South Africa and other places......but mostly South Africa.

Compare that to countries such as Tanzania, which has a far better policing system of game guards (but nowhere near perfect!), a better quota system and land that has never really been settled and has always remained a wilderness area. Sure it's a lot more expensive, but at least you know that you're getting a fair chase hunt and you have a much better chance of success.

(IMO) RSA Leopard hunts are (probably considerably) less than 30% successful.....but as we never know how many times each licence is sold, it's impossible to make an accurate assessment of success rates.

Another factor is that in SA there is no requirement for a government game guard to accompany the hunt whereas in most of the other countries there is. This means that absolutely anything that happens in the bush stays in the bush.

The funny thing is that as soon as you get out of RSA the Leopards get a lot less wary. (Which just goes to show how educated they are) We hunt two a year in Tuli Block of Botswana which is just next door to RSA and it's a lot easier there than across the border.....That said, I doubt they'll sell this year as Botswana has just started charging us a large additional icence fee for them which has resulted in a biggish price hike.

My advice to any client considering a South African Leopard hunt is don't bother - and my advice to any PH/outfitter/agent who doesn't live on the property (fulltime) the hunt is going to take place on is the same.

......save longer, spend more, go elsewhere and increase your chances dramatically.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (31/01/05 12:50 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25456 - 31/01/05 01:11 AM

Thanks Steve.

Just wanted to be educated on the reasoning behind your comments.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25461 - 31/01/05 02:25 AM

Steve,

Very interesting and thanks for posting that. I will certainly discuss the venture with my outfitter. I don't believe he is dishonest. I've known and worked with him for a long time. But the possibility that landowners could be real devious does bother me.



--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25462 - 31/01/05 02:56 AM

John

My pleasure.....I just hope I haven't dis-sillusioned too many people!

Ann

I don't know who your outfitter is and it's none of my business, I'll also say that if he works with you I have no doubt of his integrity but the problem is that in most cases the only one who MIGHT know the whole story is the Leopard.......and he ain't talking!!

We stopped all DG hunting in RSA (Except W. Rhino) many years ago for the reasons I've mentioned.......it's just a nightmare and I can see a time when we'll cease all RSA operations........hell, last year one of the places we use started to charge for laundry.......damn place is getting more like a hotel every year.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25465 - 31/01/05 03:17 AM

In reply to:

The outfitter shoots a Leopard before the start of the season and freezes it.....then a few days into each hunt he sends someone to the bait tree with the frozen pussy and a jar of blood......When the client arrives he sees the cat on the bait and is encouraged to shoot it quick!.....at the shot, the cat (which has a long piece of fishing line attached to it) gets pulled off the tree and the blood chucked about the place......the the Leopard gets picked up, carried away and returned to the freezer for the next time. The client is told he's wounded the cat and after a little walking & tracking told he's lost it......but of course, he still has to pay the trophy fee......then the landowner just claims an unsuccessful hunt and sells the licence again..... one of these was discovered last year when two hunters found themselves in adjacent seats flying home to the USA!.





Steve,

I'm amazed that someone would pull a stunt like this (and the others you mentioned). But it is unfortunatly not too suprising. I just recently looked at a website where they (a RSA hunting ranch near Soutpansberg) say they have been dealt 5 lion permits for 2005 which cost US$6500 for the trophy fee, plus a minimum of 7 days daily rates. Only "stalking" is allowed, as they don't allow the use of baits. From the website, it appears as if every "hunter" last year got his lion(ese!) within the first day!!! Does the word canned lion(ese) ring a bell...

Thank you for the warning regarding all the monkey business that goes on in RSA. I'm sure the real deal when it comes to hunting can be found in RSA too, but it's best to be cautious and do ones homework before booking. Perhaps more there then elsewhere.

Erik


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shakari
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: EricD]
      #25466 - 31/01/05 03:39 AM

Erik,

RSA is good for plains game & if it takes your fancy, Rhino, but nothing else.......and (IMO) there is no such thing as a truly wild Lion in RSA.......but I was taught to be cautious in these things.

With the current strength of the Rand there are less expensive places at the moment. Tuli Block Botswana for one. It's also a little wilder as they have Elephants and Lions wandering through from time to time.

The frozen Leopard trick is ........ummmmm......not uncommon, but I've had loved to be sitting next to the two guys when they discovered they had both been screwed!......it really appeals to my sense of humour.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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AspenHill
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25467 - 31/01/05 04:55 AM

Steve,

What resulted with the two clients who got taken? Did PHASA become involved or even some sort of legal proceedings?

That's real creepy stuff going on there. BTW- in my case we were to go to Nature Conservation for the permit. At this stage, I am rethinking the whole thing. I can be very happy with plains game.

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures


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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: AspenHill]
      #25469 - 31/01/05 06:53 AM

Hi Ann,

Yes, PHASA did get involved and although I'm not sure if it's been finalised yet the offender will probably lose his membership, which actually doesn't mean squat. Parks Board also got involved, but I don't know the outcome of that......either way, I don't suppose it will stop the offender doing business.

If you do still want to try for the Leopard maybe you could do a deal where you pay the standard plains game daily rate and a higher trophy fee if you get the cat in the salt. When you see the licence you'll notice it has the registered outfitter's or landowners name on it and not yours.........and that's what causes most if not all of the problems.

To give you some idea of the difference in success rates of the different countries, last year every single Lion bait we hunt in TZ had Leopard spoor around it and scratch marks in the tree within 24 hours. The year before we took 4 Leopards out of the same tree over the season. The tree was within walking distance of the camp. The year before that we hung a single bait in a tree and had a strike (and shot the cat) the same night.

In SA I'd bet if you hang 6 baits you'll be lucky to get a strike on one of them (over a 2 week period).

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25473 - 31/01/05 12:54 PM

In reply to:

The frozen Leopard trick is ........ummmmm......not uncommon




I suppose the trick is to see the leopard moving, not dripping.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: shakari]
      #25477 - 31/01/05 03:03 PM

Wait a minute!

Shakari, back when I got after you for bashing the Zim hunting industry, you seemed quite careful about not having any knowledge of wrongdoing in the RSA safari industry. Is the information posted above new?



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shakari
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Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Any Leopard Hunters Out Here? [Re: 500grains]
      #25481 - 31/01/05 04:38 PM

There's a difference between knowing and saying. I also know of plenty of dodgy dealings going on in Zim and other countries but don't usually advertise the fact.

I'm a great believer in ethical hunting and business methods but to be that way one also has to know how (and where) the baddies operate. If I didn't I would just be an innocent in the wilderness. .........The African hunting industry is a very close knit one indeed and bad behaviour very quickly gets known by the experienced operators ............ and I guess I'm reasonably experienced. Part of being good in any business is learning the wrinkles and knowing how to avoid them.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (01/02/05 05:25 AM)


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