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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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vladimir
.224 member


Reged: 13/12/04
Posts: 21
Loc: Louisville, Ky USA
Frighttening Experience
      #25123 - 25/01/05 12:29 PM

Hello Everyone,

When last I wrote to the forum, I was anxiously awaiting delivery of my CZ .458 Lott. Well, I received my rifle about 2 ½ weeks ago and I have a story to tell.
Day after picking up my rifle, I went to our county cabin to give it a try. Loaded up the CZ with a 500 grain .458 win mag as a first test – fired at the steel plate boar – and proceeded to catch a ricochet bullet in the abdomen. I’ve sense learned that shooting a steel plate with a FMJ is bad news - wish I’d known that before I made my stupid mistake.
Being hit by a bullet, even one that has spent most of its energy on a target, is a terrifying experience. It is the most surprising thing in the world to look at your belly and see a hole that wasn’t there before. Feels like being hit by a baseball bat in the stomach. Not a sharp or stabbing pain, but a “wallop” like getting kicked by a horse. Anyway, to make a long story short, I had emergency surgery that afternoon to remove the bullet that had penetrated 7 to 8 inches into my abdomen. Fortunately and luckily for me, my major organs were for the most part missed by the bullet. My stomach was perforated and the abdominal artery was nicked but, I should fully recover in several weeks.
One of the worst parts of the whole experience was the phone call the wife received from the local law enforcement. Naturally, it scared her to death. Will likely be a while before she lets me shoot again.
For now, I’m at home recuperating and regaining my strength. For what it’s worth, I hope my mistake can prevent someone else from having the same accident.
Take care all and be SAFE.

-Vlad

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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25125 - 25/01/05 12:41 PM

vladimir-my thoughts and prayers for a speedy and complete recovery go out to you and your wife.

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wharf
.300 member


Reged: 02/08/04
Posts: 156
Loc: aust
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25126 - 25/01/05 01:39 PM

Thats a bit of bad luck mate hope you get well.If you dont mind me asking,How far away was the plate and what is it made from.

--------------------
if it bleeds we can kill it.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25127 - 25/01/05 01:43 PM

Vlad,
What a nasty experience that would surely be!

Get well soon mate!

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vapodog
.300 member


Reged: 28/12/04
Posts: 237
Loc: Nebraska USA
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: wharf]
      #25129 - 25/01/05 01:44 PM

Get well soon.....and thanks for the "heads up"

--------------------

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foxfire
.375 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 511
Loc: Long Island N.Y.,
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25134 - 25/01/05 03:14 PM

Get well soon, our prayers and thoughts are with you for a speedy recovery.

--------------------
No good deed goes unpunished

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25137 - 25/01/05 03:45 PM

Vlad,

I am sorry to hear of your accident, and best wishes for a speedy recovrry.

Can you tell us how far away the steel plate was? I have been hit by bouncing bits of .45 acp lead bullets fired at steel plate targets set out at 25 yards.

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510Wells
.275 member


Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 62
Loc: Gold Bar, Wa.
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25144 - 25/01/05 05:10 PM

Sorry to hear about your accident.

I feel I should poke an oar in the water here and also warn everyone here about another ricochet hazard. A old un-inflated car tire if shot into the tread will return a bullet right back at you or off to the side depending on the angle of impact.

Right after I got a Ruger 44 mag. I was "plinking" at a local dumping site near Reno and shot a tire, after I went over to look at it I was suprised to see NO bullet hole, humm, must have missed it.

Well, I went back to my car reloaded and shot it again, this time I could see the tire move from the impact, still no bullet hole. I then crouched down and took careful aim and fired again. This time the bullet came (almost straight) back and went wizzing past my right ear. Three inchs to the left and I wouldn't be writing this. I guess I'm lucky or as I've been told God protects us fools.

Please warn your kids (and friends) not to shoot car tires.


--------------------
The only constant is change.

Member DRSS

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AussieMike
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Reged: 01/09/04
Posts: 236
Loc: Southern Tablelands, NSW, Aust...
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: 510Wells]
      #25146 - 25/01/05 05:16 PM

Sorry to hear about your accident, sounds like you'll be back to normal in no time.

I've been thinking about getting some steel plate swinging targets made - i think I'll stick to shooting logs cut to length with diameter based on kill zone of quarry.

mike

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SAHUNT
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Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: AussieMike]
      #25148 - 25/01/05 05:59 PM

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. Hope you have a speedy recovery.

The SA Hunting and Game Conservation Ass. did some extensive reseach for our shooting competitions, if steel plates are used we shoot them at 200 meters. I'm not 100% sure what the closest distance are, but I won't come closer than 200 meters. The safest for practice is still paper punching.

Regards

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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blackbearhunter
.333 member


Reged: 15/06/04
Posts: 273
Loc: swamp
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: SAHUNT]
      #25157 - 25/01/05 10:48 PM

Sorry to hear about your accident.You are lucky!Take care and get well soon!

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: blackbearhunter]
      #25162 - 26/01/05 12:55 AM

My prayers for a speedy and a complete recovery to you and your family.Thanks for making us think again before we shoot at anything.

Best regards
Dantri

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25163 - 26/01/05 12:59 AM

Vlad,

A shocking story! I hope you get well soon, and thank you for the warning.

Erik

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: EricD]
      #25169 - 26/01/05 02:04 AM

It's not just fmjs, I've had pistol bullets "return" back to me from a steel plate. I never shot the damn things. Although I love the gong it makes.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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canada
.275 member


Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: bonanza]
      #25176 - 26/01/05 04:58 AM

Several years ago after sighting in I shot a steel plate at 50 yrds. with a 30-06. The bullet turned inside out as can be seen by the rifling marks on the inside returned and took out my left eye.I was standing at the time and if you think except for the recoil the bullet was headed back for the barrel.At the time I was shooting a particular brand of silver tip factory ammo.I sent the ammo and spoke to the company on the phone. They attempted to duplicate the accident but were unable to get the bullet to come back in the same manner.I will not shoot at anyting that is not paper or a game animal. You could not pay me enough money to shoot at any steel plate at any distance now. We had shot hundreds of rounds at this plate before.

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new_guy
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Reged: 10/08/04
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Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: canada]
      #25180 - 26/01/05 07:21 AM

I'm very sorry for vladimir and consider him very lucky to have only come out as badly as he did.

I don't want to hijack his thread, but I've shot them too and love to shoot the steel plates with the big stuff.

I guess the question is: does it matter how the plate is supported? In other words, if it were rigid and unable to swing - I would think that would increase the likliehood of a bounce-back.

Mine are welded with chain and allowed to swing with the impact of the bullet.

Just an academic question... I'll consider myself lucky thus far, and this one of those lessons that didn't come the "hard way" for me!

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25182 - 26/01/05 07:28 AM

Vladimir,

Sorry to hear about your injury.

Hope you are feeling better and up shooting again soon!

Chasseur

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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ATHiker07
.275 member


Reged: 10/12/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Florida
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25190 - 26/01/05 09:32 AM

vladimir,
Best wishes for a speedy recovery! Not many people can point at a scar and say they were hit by a .458. I will avoid "rebounding" targets in the future.


--------------------
Take a child hunting, they are the future of our sport!

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ridgerunner_ky
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Reged: 23/01/05
Posts: 44
Loc: Kentucky, U.S.
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25205 - 26/01/05 05:29 PM

First of all I will pray for you a speedy, and complete recovery.
I am only about 120 miles from Louisville so maybe after you recover, maybe one day we could get together and shoot at paper though..

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SOUTHPAWTOO
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 85
Loc: Indiana, USA
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: ridgerunner_ky]
      #25214 - 26/01/05 11:20 PM

Dear Vlad,
Gosh Pard, I sure am sorry. I, like the others do pray for a speedy recovery. I'm only about an hours drive north of you near Madison, IN. If you give me a shout, I'd like to come visit you. (maybe bring you a "get well pizza" or something) Also, inasmuch as "Ridgerunner" is not too far away, maybe we could get him to join us.
Your incident has certainly given me a reason to reflect on my own shooting. Again, sorry for your accident but thank you for sharing it with us. Don
(give me a call if you'd like, 812-866-2406)

--------------------
SP2


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ThomasEdwards
.300 member


Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25215 - 26/01/05 11:29 PM

...yes, vad...wishing you a speedy recovery and much gratitude for your warning to the nitroexpress forum participants...

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25219 - 27/01/05 12:47 AM

Get well soon mate.
You can't keep a good man down.
Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2404
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #25225 - 27/01/05 02:54 AM

I also wish you a speedy recovery, it certainly must have been a frightening experiance.

I have also been struck by a rebounding slug. I got hit on the thigh by a .38 SPL wadcutter that rebounded off a log while rabbit hunting. The lead bullet hit hard enough to imprint the weave of the fabric of my trousers,. It didn't penetrate, only bruised. Range from the log was less than 10 yards. The ammo was factory WW Match ammo at about 770fps

I shot Handgun Metallic silhouettes for several years. As Match Director and Range Officer I had the occasion too follow up on rebounding slug reports. Most occurred at the 50 meter chickens. Some involved pieces of jacket material coming back. Some involved complete or partial slugs coming back, I don't recall a one that involved full power ammo, with an exception. The majority of rebounds were solid FMJ silhouette bullets. Low velocity was a key factor in kick back with the Pistol rounds.

The exception was our practice target. We found some very heavy plate 1"+ and set up some rigid mounted practice targets. We noted very early on the spatter pattern from the rigid 50 meter chicken was very different than the free standing chicken. Bullet spatter back almost to the firing line. We removed that rigid target and put up a hanging target and the problem was resolved.

I have a hard and fast rule. I never shoot without eye protection. Simple now, my old Geezer eyes require glasses to see. But back in my younger days and especially shooting sillhouettes I used eye protection. Our silhouette Club Mandated eye protection.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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470Rigby
.333 member


Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: DoubleD]
      #25231 - 27/01/05 05:23 AM

A salutory lesson indeed.....thanks for sharing it...

Had a similar experience once with a Kangaroo!

While attemting to put down a cripple with a 22RF..... (don't ask what type!)....drew a bead on his head....fired...then instantly hit on the leg by the bullet!

It had entered the eye socket....ricocheted around and came straight back at me!

Stung badly and left a bruise....but if it had hit me in the eye????

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BigRx
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Reged: 26/12/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Idaho
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25235 - 27/01/05 07:56 AM

Vlad,

I echo everyone's best wishes for a speedy recovery. You were indeed blessed that you didn't receive lasting or debilitating injuries from that BIG slug.

I hope all on the board learn from your experience! I no longer shoot steel under 50 yards with a rifle after an experience with the dinky .17 Remington. At 35 yards or so the little 25 grain bullet was almost penetrating 1/2" steel. I thought just a little closer would do it and set the steel just 15 yards away. At the shot I felt a sharp sting in my belly. I passed it off as a biting insect, but a time later I looked down to a blood spot!

Almost half of that little .17 jacket was stuck on the surface of my belly and required disloding with my pocket knife.

I guess the moral of this story for us all is that even the littlest or fastest of our rifles are not safe on steel up close. I thought the fragile little .17 disintergrated to vapor against steel But It didn't.......

BigRx

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Metswedi
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Reged: 20/01/05
Posts: 156
Loc: Yorks. England
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: BigRx]
      #25240 - 27/01/05 09:42 AM

Best wishes for a speedy recovery mate.

Had a 9mm from a Sterling SMG come back at me in my army days on the 25m range. Only noticed it when I heard a clang from the hand rail behind my firing point.

The backstop was made of old railway sleeper type material and I'd hit an old steel bolt in the wood.( which should have been removed Mr Range Safety Officer!!! ) Just goes to show it can happen to anybody anywhere. No telling what will happen once the bullet has left the muzzle.

Chin up and get well soon!!!

--------------------
Perfer et obdura!

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Karl
.275 member


Reged: 28/05/03
Posts: 83
Loc: South Pacific
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: Metswedi]
      #25251 - 27/01/05 06:20 PM

Not that I'm telling poor old Vlad anything new but if its hardened metal it certainly can bounce the bullets back at you, and in a disturbingly straight line too.

You either get the bullet right through it.

The bullet splashes to oblivion.

Or you have a potential situation.

I've had soft stuff like 22's, buckshot pellets, and 12 ga slugs come back at me from penetration tests.Hit once by the buckshot, not hard though. 12ga slug missed by a few inches-I heard it buzz past.

Karl.

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clark7781
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Reged: 28/10/04
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Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25283 - 28/01/05 09:54 AM

Vlad:

Many good thoughts heading your way. Make sure you take all the time YOU need to get better.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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AdamTayler
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Reged: 22/03/04
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Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25501 - 01/02/05 07:15 AM

Vlad

I hope all is well and that you can stop eating jello as soon as possible.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25519 - 01/02/05 03:01 PM

Vladimir,

Thank you for posting this information. We all need to be mindful of gun safety, particularly when our activity is not obviously unsafe.

Like everyone else, I wish you a speedy and complete recovery.

It is interesting to hear other people relate their experiences with surprise ricochets. I too have an experience to pass on. Fortunately, nobody got hurt.

DoubleD's story is closest to mine.

Many years ago (about 1970) when I was in high school I spent summer afternoons shooting a Model 19 Smith & Wesson .357 Mag. I had no money for ammo, so I cast bullets from a Lyman mould. 158 gr. Keith style semi-wadcutters cast from wheel weights. I loaded light loads - 5.0 gr. Unique.

My friend and I were hunting groundhogs one afternoon. We came upon a discarded Coca-Cola bottle in the pasture near a fence line. I picked it up and placed it on top of a fence post. From about 25 yards I shot it with my .357 Mag. On the report of the gun the bottle shattered, and my friend, standing beside me, stepped back in pain. The bullet had rebounded from its impact with the bottle, and hit him in the neck.

Fortunately, there was no injury. He said it felt like somebody poked him in the neck with a fist. In fact, from the corner of his eye he saw the bullet fall to the ground. We quickly found it in the grass. I still have it somewhere.

My friend always has joked about the day I shot him with my .357! I'll bet he's glad it wasn't a .458.

Best wishes,
CptCurl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: vladimir]
      #25525 - 01/02/05 06:25 PM

Vladimir

I am sorry to hear about your accident and I wish you a speedy recovery. Thanks also for the warning.

I used to shoot a .22 in a quarry at paper targets (sighting in etc) but discontinued that location when I heard a .22 bullet come whizzing back passed my ear after a ricochet off a rock. The local police used to use the same quarry on my land to practice with shotguns and their .357 wadcutters and I always wondered about how many ricochets they were getting. You would find occasional expended wadcutters in all sorts of places.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Brian
.224 member


Reged: 03/02/05
Posts: 41
Loc: NY (Delaware County)
Re: Frighttening Experience [Re: Metswedi]
      #25580 - 03/02/05 02:34 AM

I have shot quite a bit on steel targets with rifles and handguns. I am currently deployed in Iraq, and immediately prior to this deployment I attended a course where in we shot over 3000 rds of 9mm and 5.56 and 7.62 per person in a weeks time. From as close as 10 meters out to 100 meters. No accidents, no injuries. The ammunition was almost all FMJ, some of it M855 ball. No problems at all.

I think the issue is whether or not the target is rigid (as mentioned by a previous poster) All of the steel I have shot has been either hanging, pivoting, or swinging. All had the ability to move when struck by a bullet.Commonly referred to as reactive targets. The use of steel targets for tactical training is the norm. Spalling was observable but what we saw was a radial dispersion of fragments upon the bullet striking the target surface. From 10 meters away, you would see bullets spall up and drop to the ground, occasionally see a piece of spall loop up in the air and come back towards the firing line but in a manner similar to if you picked a piece off the gournd and lobbed it underhand towards the target.

Rifles were limited to a minimum distance of 25 meters. You could observe rounds hit and really smalck the targets but they all disintegrated. The targets would really get hammered, swing wildly on thier chains. We also used what are called pepper Poppers which pivot at the base. Same results.

I would surmise that firing a round at an extremely rigid steel target that would not have any give to it would cause that to happen, just like shooting a BB at plywood. Yes, they richochet badly. Same principle.
Just my 2 cents.

--------------------
Brian

LTC, IN
Back from Afghanistan
Life Member A.H. Fox Gun Collectors Assoc.
Endowment Member NRA
Delaware County, NY

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