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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion
      #250480 - 15/07/14 08:30 PM

I have a mid 1960's Merkel 12 Gauge side by side box lock shotgun and am considering converting it to a double rifle in 450 Nitro Express. Has anybody used such an action before and have there been any problems.

Waidmannsheil.

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #250491 - 15/07/14 09:24 PM

I have same age Sauer & sohn 16 cal. shotgun. It has greener bolt but despite that I wouldn´t convert mine to double rifle for two main reasons: First, triggers pull is quite insensiteve, even stiff. I have noticed that even some russian cheap s&s has better ones. In my shotgun firing pins are angled so that it would be quite a work to change them and make pin holes smaller. IMO any shotgun action with disk set strikes would be much better alternative.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Reged: 27/04/08
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Igorrock]
      #250492 - 15/07/14 09:32 PM

Igorrock; Are you talking about the Suhl models with the scalloped receivers and greener cross bolts ? I also have a couple of these shotguns and have wondered the same . I was even considering barrel inserts but the ones sold in the US have no way to regulate them. I will post pictures later

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (15/07/14 09:33 PM)

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Igorrock
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #250515 - 16/07/14 02:10 AM

Quote:

Igorrock; Are you talking about the Suhl models with the scalloped receivers and greener cross bolts ?

Yes, exactly.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Igorrock]
      #250536 - 16/07/14 08:07 PM

Thank you Gentlemen for your replies. The gun that I have will need the bent on the hammer reworked anyway as somebody has attempted to reduce the trigger pulls and stuffed it up. It may therefore be easier to just make new hammers without firing pins and machine and install disc set strikers at the same time. What I really want to know is if anybody has had any problems with the frame stretching or cracking with such a conversion. I purchased the gun for a very good price and it is in otherwise reasonable condition. Thanks again.

Waidmannsheil.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #250728 - 20/07/14 03:53 AM

Sauers, Merkels, and Simsons have all been used in conversion guns, I'm just not sure about the 450 Nitro cartridge. All three of these companies used the same frames at one time at least, they were made up in the Merkel factory and a virtually identical. I don't think you will have any trouble with the fames giving way as long as they are in good shape when you start your conversion. I did a .405 conversion on a Simson and it is holding up very well and I am getting ready to do a 45-120 on a Merkel. I think the 45-120 could be loaded up to 450 Nitro pressure levels in a modern gun, but I won't be loading this one that heavily. Bob

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #250739 - 20/07/14 09:21 AM

Thanks Birdhunter, I chose the 450 Nitro as the cases are readily available and not to expensive, there is a large choice of projectiles and it has a low breach pressure. I figured that as the Merkel has a Greener crossbolt, side clips, bolsters as well as a Purdey nose it would have to be a good candidate for a conversion. Being a 12 gauge frame means I can build plenty of weight into it. The only concern I have is whether or not the steel used in the frame is any good as it was made in East Germany during the communist era. I have lots of relatives who live Magdeburg and some of them worked in the steel industries during that time, and they often talked about the steel quality being a bit unreliable. Mostly that is because their industries were very inefficient and supply of East German made steel could not keep up with demand, therefore sometimes Russian steel was substituted. Hopefully with Merkel being a premium exporter they only used good steel.

Waidmannsheil.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #252902 - 29/08/14 02:20 PM

Gentlemen, all three shotguns made by Simson, Merkel, and Sauer use Anson & Deeley type actions made by Merkel. The Merkel actions are hardened for double rifle use because it is cheaper to build only one action strength and simply make it in the size you want for the chambering it will be barreled for, be it rifle or shotgun. IOW, Merkel shotguns are made on rifle actions, not the other way around! The actions used for rifles only come it two sizes.

The firing pin holes in them are either 28 ga or 20 ga spacing and the outside is made slimmer, or wider depending rifle cartridge and barrel diameter to be used in the rifle. The largest diameter rifle cartridge in a Merkel action is a 500NE, and the small rifles are built on the 28 ga size.

Until lately all Merkel double rifles were shoe lump barrel sets, but the newer ones are on mono-block barrel sets. It has been many years since a Merkel action was made without disk-set strikers. All the Cal Rigbys were made on Merkel 20 ga size actions. The 12 ga is larger than needed for converting to a 450NE IMO! The Merkel 500NE is made on the 20ga size action. The actions are all heat treated for rifle use.

Done properly there is no worry about the Merkel action taking up to 500NE rifle chambers. Both the shoe-lump actions by Merkel, and Heym are comparatively low temp brazed at the shoe-lump, not soldered!

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DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (29/08/14 02:26 PM)

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Shotgunlover
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Reged: 24/08/13
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Loc: Greece
Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #252908 - 29/08/14 10:39 PM

Dugaboy,

Can you elaborate on the difference in hardening shotgun actions and DR actions? I was under the impression, gathered from books and articles, that they both underwent case hardening and the core was left soft to absorb bending stresses.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #252958 - 30/08/14 10:51 PM

Waidmannsheil,
I would guess that your 12 gauge Merkel would stand up to about any reasonable 450 load. I would be more concerned how the firing pins fit in their holes. If there is not much room around them I would not worry about it at all.
My reasoning for going with the 45-120 loading instead of the 450 3 1/3 inch nitro load is the same reason you stated. I can buy Norma 45-120 brass much cheaper,($40.98 for a box of 20), or use cheap Norma 45 basic brass,($24.95 for a box of 20),to get my loads done. A set of loading dies in 45-120 3 1/4 inch was $51.61 from Huntingtons. I bought 140 rounds of new Norma brass for an average cost of $1.54 each. How much will your .450 3 1/4 inch nitro cases cost you?
I'm sure I can approach .450 nitro speeds in the 45-120 without going over pressure with these cases. If I don't quite get that much speed, I will still have a flat shooting load that will do anything I need to do with it, at less than half the cost. I do not need, nore will I be loading any 500 grain bullets, although the caliber will handle them. Most of mine will be in the 350 to 400 grain weights. Case capacity is, for all intents and purposes, identical to the .450 3 1/4 inch nitro, so there is no need to worry about running out of case capacity.
One of your biggest problems in the .450 will be the same as mine, what powder to use and how much of what kind of filler? I intend to use backer rod in mine for a filler. I have already used it successfully in .577 cases and .600 cases. If I was not using the backer rod I would consider dacron as a next best choice. Good luck with your conversion project. Bob

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Reged: 27/04/08
Posts: 449
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Igorrock]
      #252974 - 31/08/14 10:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Igorrock; Are you talking about the Suhl models with the scalloped receivers and greener cross bolts ?

Yes, exactly.


Here are my German SXS 12 Gauge guns . Gebruder Merkel Suhl (top) and J.P.Sauer

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Igorrock
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #253012 - 31/08/14 09:55 PM

I have just similar as the lower one but caliber is 16/70.

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Merkel 12 Gauge Conversion [Re: Igorrock]
      #253035 - 01/09/14 02:22 PM

Quote:

I have just similar as the lower one but caliber is 16/70.

I use these guns for Grouse hunting which is a passion .The Merkel I use in the early season and thick cover as it has improved cylinder barrels and the Sauer for later season and open country as both barrels are full choked .Interestingly enough the Merkel will put a Brenneke slug from both barrels into a playing card at about 40 -50 yards . I have tried this with a few open choked SXS shotguns I have owned and have never came close to doing this . This gun must have been regulated for slugs at the factory .Never shot slugs from the Sauer but it patterns magnificently well .I even took the Merkel one time to a local Running Boar target shoot .Everybody laughed until I won. A Brenneke Rottweil slug at 50 yard kills a Deer quite dead I can tell you although I mostly have used this Gun for Grouse and Pheasants and left the Deer for the rifles.

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (01/09/14 08:38 PM)

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